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preservanation
03-16-2008, 03:01 PM
I'm going to abridge this due to length...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/15/AR2008031502358_pf.html

D.C.'s Gun Ban Gets Day in Court
Justices' Decision May Set Precedent In Interpreting the 2nd Amendment

By Robert Barnes
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, March 16, 2008; A01

Despite mountains of scholarly research, enough books to fill a library shelf and decades of political battles about gun control, the Supreme Court will have an opportunity this week that is almost unique for a modern court when it examines whether the District's handgun ban violates the Second Amendment.

The outcome could roil the 2008 political campaigns, send a national message about what kinds of gun control are constitutional and finally settle the question of whether the 27-word amendment, with its odd structure and antiquated punctuation, provides an individual right to gun ownership or simply pertains to militia service.

"The case has been structured so that they have to confront the threshold question," said Robert A. Levy, the wealthy libertarian lawyer who has spent five years and his own money to bring District of Columbia v. Heller to the Supreme Court. "I think they have to come to grips with that."

The stakes are obviously high for the District, which passed the nation's strictest gun-control law in 1976, just after residents were granted the authority to govern themselves. It virtually bans the private possession of handguns, and requires that rifles and shotguns in the home be kept unloaded and disassembled or outfitted with a trigger lock.

The law's challengers -- security guard Dick Anthony Heller is the named party in the suit -- say the measure has been an abysmal failure at cutting crime or stanching the city's homicide rate, and a success only in depriving the law-abiding of a ready weapon for protection. The District contends that banning handguns is a logical decision in an urban setting, where more guns would result in more killings.

The city's lawyers argue that the Second Amendment does not provide an individual right and that, even if it does, the amendment is not implicated by legislation that concerns only the District of Columbia.

Clues to the justices' interpretations of the Second Amendment are scant and cryptic, and Roberts said during his 2005 confirmation hearings that the last time the court considered the issue -- in 1939 -- it "sidestepped" the fundamental questions.

Levy and lawyers Alan Gura and Clark Neily were able to persuade the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit last year to do what no other federal appeals court had ever done: strike down a local gun-control ordinance on Second Amendment grounds.

The amendment says that "a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed,'' and all but one of the circuits that had considered the issue previously had interpreted it as providing a gun-ownership right related only to military service.

But Senior Judge Laurence H. Silberman, a conservative icon, wrote for a 2 to 1 panel that the amendment provides an individual right just as other provisions of the Bill of Rights do. And because handguns fall under the definition of "arms," he wrote, the District may not ban them.

The Supreme Court's endorsement of an individual right would be a monumental change in federal jurisprudence, but perhaps not surprising. Even a small but growing group of liberal constitutional scholars -- "against my political instincts," in the words of Harvard law professor Laurence H. Tribe -- have endorsed the individual-right view.

Clement said that the District's law may well be unconstitutional, but that the case should be returned to lower courts for "application of a proper standard of review" and to permit "Second Amendment doctrine to develop in an incremental and prudent fashion."What a bunch of gobbledygook!

Gun rights supporters were furious about the government's position, and Vice President Cheney went so far as to join a friend-of-the-court brief that specifically rejects the administration's view. Levy said returning the case to lower courts would be a "death knell," and his team has urged the court to apply "strict scrutiny" to any government action that would restrict gun ownership.

The challengers have received a broad array of political support, signs of the strength of the gun rights movement: More than 31 states and a majority of the House and Senate have signed friend-of-the-court briefs.

Among the presidential candidates, Republican Sen. John McCain signed on, while Democratic Sens. Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton did not. Both Democrats have looked for a middle ground, saying they believe the Second Amendment preserves an individual right, but one that is subject to government restrictions.More absolute gobbledygook! What???
Our rights exist but the gov has the right to restrict them? WTcryinF?

That position would seem popular. A Washington Post poll shows that 72 percent of the public believes the Constitution provides an individual right, but respondents were evenly split on whether it is more important to protect the rights of Americans to own guns or to control gun ownership.

Nearly 60 percent said they would support the kind of law in question.

But nationally, it is hard to find many laws as restrictive as the one in the District, partly because of the gun rights lobby's vigilance. More than 40 state constitutions have gun ownership guarantees. Maryland's is one of the few that does not.

As a result, it is difficult to know what gun-control legislation across the country would be at risk even if the Supreme Court upheld the D.C. Circuit's decision.

Levy said the next targets will be handgun laws in Chicago and New York City, although the court has never held that the Second Amendment is applicable to states. And one legal theory is that the provision is a restriction only against the federal government.

Both sides agree that the court's decision could send a powerful message beyond the District.

But he acknowledged in an interview that the justices might "jump at the opportunity" to write broadly when they finally have a chance to put their mark "on a part of the Constitution that isn't already paved over with layer upon layer of judicial precedent."
This is a long time coming...I'm seeing CJustice Roberts coming down on the side of 2nd amendment supporters.
He should. What opponents want to do is change our Constitution without going through the lawful process. This is unacceptable in a land governed by laws and our founding documents.

Osborn F. Enready
03-16-2008, 03:54 PM
If they try to outlaw my gun, it will be a clear signal its time to start using it.

On Individual Gun Ownership

"The great object is that every man be armed ... Everyone who is able may have a gun." Patrick Henry, 3 Elliot, Debates at 386

"Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped;…" Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers # 29.

"Among the natural rights of the Colonists are these: First, a right to life; Secondly, to liberty; Thirdly, to property; together with the right to support and defend them in the best manner they can. These are evident branches of, rather than deductions from, the duty of self-preservation, commonly called the first law of nature." Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists, The Report of the Committee of Correspondence to the Boston Town Meeting, Nov. 20, 1772.

"...one loves to possess arms, tho[ugh] they hope never to have occasion for them." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to George Washington, June 19, 1796. ME 9:341 Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Memorial Edition (Lipscomb and Bergh, editors) 20 Vols., Washington, D.C., 1903-04.

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." Thomas Jefferson, Encyclopedia of T. Jefferson, 318 (Foley, Ed., reissued 1967). (Letter to Peter Carr, his 15-year-old nephew, August 19, 1785)

"I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778.

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were one half the world deprived of the use of them …" Thomas Paine, Thoughts on Defensive War, 1775. I Writings of Thomas Paine at 56 (1894).

"False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils, except destruction.

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes....Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. Thomas Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in Chapter 40 of "On Crimes and Punishment", 1764. Chapter. Whole Book.

"Great part of the happiness of mankind depends upon those means, by which the innocent may be saved from their cruel invaders: among which the opportunities they have of defending themselves may be reckoned the chief." William Wollaston, The Religion of Nature 132 (1724). Cited in That Every Man Be Armed by Stephen Halbrook (Page 209, footnote 248). This book is part of the SAF library.

[the British] told us we shall have no more guns, no powder to use, and kill our wolves and other game, nor to send to you for you to kill your victuals with, and to get skins to trade with us, to buy your blankets and what you want. How can you live without powder and guns? But we hope to supply you soon with both, of our own making." Samuel Adams to the Mohawk Indians, III S. Adams, Writings 213.

"Arms in the hands of citizens [may] be used at individual discretion… in private self-defense …" John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of the Government of the USA, 471 (1788)

Many more quotes relevant in context to the facts of individual gun rights being a foundation of our nation.

http://www.saf.org/pub/rkba/general/FoundersQuotes.htm

brien
03-17-2008, 09:09 PM
It is Parker vs DC that sent the appeals case to the SCOTUS. Here is some background

http://www.gurapossessky.com/news/parker/overview.html


Background

Drug dealers have repeatedly threatened Shelly Parker in retaliation for her attempts to rid her neighborhood of crime. Ms. Parker has also repeatedly suffered vandalism and attempts to break into her home. The police and criminal justice system have proven they cannot guarantee her safety. Dick Heller is a Special Police Officer of the District of Columbia, authorized to carry a gun as he provides security for federal judges at the Thurgood Marshall Federal Judicial Center on Capitol Hill. However, Mr. Heller is not permitted any sort of functional firearm to defend himself at his home in a crime-ridden section of south east Washington, D.C.. Tom G. Palmer once successfully used a handgun to avoid becoming a gay-bashing statistic. But that was before he moved to Washington. Gillian St. Lawrence owns a lawfully registered long gun, but it serves little useful purpose in her home, where the law requires that it be kept in a non-operative condition. Tracey Ambeau and George Lyon are also law-abiding Washington, D.C. residents who would like to exercise the same right available throughout the fifty states – the right to keep a working firearm in their homes.

The District of Columbia requires that all firearms be registered, but the registration of handguns has been forbidden since 1978. Effectively, there is a complete ban on the possession of handguns. While long arms may be possessed, they must be kept disassembled or bound by a trigger lock at all times, without exception, when kept in one’s home. A gun can only be rendered functional in one’s place of business or while engaged in recreational shooting. Moreover, the law provides that moving a gun inside one’s own home, or on one’s possessed land, is illegal without a special permit that is generally unavailable. Violation of this provision is a misdemeanor, separate and apart from the felony prohibition of carrying a pistol in public.

All of these provisions are aggressively enforced against otherwise law abiding citizens. Enforcement even extends to people who defend themselves against home intruders, including in cases where the government approves of the actual shooting as having been committed in self-defense.


The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”

The phrase “right of the people” also appears in the First and Fourth Amendments, while the Ninth Amendment speaks of rights “retained by the people.” The word “people” has always referred to individual human beings. Where the Framers spoke of the states, they used the word, “states.” In the Tenth Amendment, “people” and “states” are each used to refer to different concepts. The word “militia” has always referred to the able-bodied citizenry that is capable of defending public order in times of crisis, not some specific paramilitary organization.

In the mid-20th century, gun prohibitionists conjured an elaborate theory that “the people” actually means “states,” such that the Second Amendment only guarantees a “collective right” of the states to arm troops and does not secure any individual rights. This theory contradicts the substantial history of the Second Amendment, the plain meaning of the words, and long accepted rules of English grammar. It also conflicts with the Constitution’s prohibition on the states maintaining armed troops without permission of the federal government. We note American history does not record any problems with troops being denied the use of arms in combat, such that troops require a constitutional right to be armed

>

On March 9, 2007, the appellate court reversed the lower court's opinion, and struck down all three laws challenged by the plaintiffs as violations of the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. The city and its new Mayor, Adrian Fenty, have asked the Supreme Court to hear the case. We look forward to vindicating the Second Amendment rights of all Americans before the Supreme Court should it decide to hear the case.

We should have the decision by the Supreme Court by June. I read somewhere that the smart money is on the Supreme Court upholding of the individual's right to own and use firearms without undue restriction by states or cities.:fight:

Osborn F. Enready
03-17-2008, 10:28 PM
brien said:
...without undue restriction by states or cities...

I would love to see the definition of this term, and how it is construed and derived at from "shall not be infringed".

:ponder:

brien
03-19-2008, 06:24 PM
brien said:
...without undue restriction by states or cities...

I would love to see the definition of this term, and how it is construed and derived at from "shall not be infringed".

:ponder:


Os; What is also interesting here is how those who propose the ban on firearms support the idea that somewhere back in the last 50 years the words "the right of the PEOPLE shall not be infringed." have somehow been interpreted to mean the right of the "STATE". See below.


The phrase “right of the people” also appears in the First and Fourth Amendments, while the Ninth Amendment speaks of rights “retained by the people.” The word “people” has always referred to individual human beings. Where the Framers spoke of the states, they used the word, “states.” In the Tenth Amendment, “people” and “states” are each used to refer to different concepts. The word “militia” has always referred to the able-bodied citizenry that is capable of defending public order in times of crisis, not some specific paramilitary organization.

In the mid-20th century, gun prohibitionists conjured an elaborate theory that “the people” actually means “states,” such that the Second Amendment only guarantees a “collective right” of the states to arm troops and does not secure any individual rights. This theory contradicts the substantial history of the Second Amendment, the plain meaning of the words, and long accepted rules of English grammar. It also conflicts with the Constitution’s prohibition on the states maintaining armed troops without permission of the federal government. We note American history does not record any problems with troops being denied the use of arms in combat, such that troops require a constitutional right to be armed

I think we on the pro gun side understand the distinctions above. Those who are anti gun would have to agree with the above logic otherwise, they would also have to throw out the 1st, 4th and 9th Amendments as well. That said, I have met some people who would be happy to trash the entire BOR anyway. :grrrr::fight:

I think we have this one in the bag but we will see in June.