Things we ought to do.....foreign oil 1.1

[PostmodernProphet]

All politics aside, there are some things this country needs to do....

for example, with respect to our reliance on foreign oil...

we should:
1. pass a law that by 2010 every new vehicle sold in the US should be fitted to run on flex-fuel
2. pass a law that by 2012 every new vehicle sold in the US should be built to run on all three of electricity, hydrogen fuel cells, or flex-fuel....(Toyota is already doing it)
3. pass a law that by 2010 every gas station has at least one pump that distributes biofuels, either E85 or biodeisel
4. pass a law that by 2015 every vehicle on the road has to be capable of running flex fuel


we could eliminate foreign oil imports by 2012.....

[4Reaganomics]

Who the hell would pay for this?

How the hell would GM and Ford and Chrysler survive this type of thing?

This increase in the price of vehicles as a result of what you were proposing will cause a mass response from the consumers.

[PostmodernProphet]

Who the hell would pay for this? - the same people paying for foreign oil today....consumers......

How the hell would GM and Ford and Chrysler survive this type of thing? ....every vehicle being sold would face the same requirements....foreign or domestic....thus no unfair competitive edge for anyone....

This increase in the price of vehicles as a result of what you were proposing will cause a mass response from the consumers. .....compared to $5 a gallon for gas which nobody will bother responding to?......

[Easy90]

Hmmm....So then, a low in Saturn would run about ...oh...$85,000. Yeah, good idea PP! :drool:

[PatrickHenry]

More government is not the solution to a market problem.

Why the hard-on against foreign oil anyhow?

I got no problem with foreign oil...as long as Uncle Sam doesn't go to war over it and spend borrowed trillion$s...

[Wndrtch]

"According to the U.S. Census Bureau, as of 2002, there were 117,100 gas service stations in the U.S"

Do you have any idea how much it costs to put a new tank in the ground, and new pumps in every one of those?

[4Reaganomics]

Consumers respond to price changes, even with something relatively inelastic such as automobiles.

Lets say all cookies were made a certain way and as an effect they all cost 127$ a box. How many people will replace cookies with crackers or pretzels?

Your plan is the end of the automotive industry if it is not in part tax payer funded. And if it is in part tax payer funded than the American people will be hurting much more than the current price at the pump is hurting them.

I've got an idea on how to make people pay less at the pump and help out consumers. How about we get rid of the ludicrous 60 cents + a gallon tax that the government is currently making off of fuel.

No, we have to punish General Motors and The Ford Motor Company as well as the American consumers.

[PostmodernProphet]

Hmmm....So then, a low in Saturn would run about ...oh...$85,000. Yeah, good idea PP! :drool:


is so Saturn must be doing something wrong....the Toyota Highlander already does it with a sticker price of $30k.........

and you can convert an existing car to flex fuel now for $500 so I can't imagine why they couldn't make it standard equipment by 2010 at a lower cost.......[hr]
More government is not the solution to a market problem.

Why the hard-on against foreign oil anyhow?

I got no problem with foreign oil...as long as Uncle Sam doesn't go to war over it and spend borrowed trillion$s...


indecision is not a solution to a market problem, either.....

hard-on against foreign oil?.....spelled C H A V E Z.......[hr]
"According to the U.S. Census Bureau, as of 2002, there were 117,100 gas service stations in the U.S"

Do you have any idea how much it costs to put a new tank in the ground, and new pumps in every one of those?


don't need new pumps or tanks, just need to dedicate one to E85......[hr]Your plan is the end of the automotive industry if it is not in part tax payer funded. And if it is in part tax payer funded than the American people will be hurting much more than the current price at the pump is hurting them.

as Marie would say, "let em eat running shoes".....just what kind of pretzel do you think the American consumer is going to replace the car with?.......[hr]I've got an idea on how to make people pay less at the pump and help out consumers. How about we get rid of the ludicrous 60 cents + a gallon tax that the government is currently making off of fuel.

and accomplish what....deferring this issue until 2011?......do you remember when we had a fuel crisis in the 70s?.....did that change our habits....did it result in a shift away from foreign oil?......[hr]No, we have to punish General Motors and The Ford Motor Company as well as the American consumers.

revitalization of American industry.....new engine plants all over the country, ethanol refineries being built in every state, new fuel cell refueling stations on every corner.....shucks, it isn't punishment, it's a government works project......

[Wndrtch]

"According to the U.S. Census Bureau, as of 2002, there were 117,100 gas service stations in the U.S"

Do you have any idea how much it costs to put a new tank in the ground, and new pumps in every one of those?


don't need new pumps or tanks, just need to dedicate one to E85......


I don't think you can do that. Once you fill a tank with a certain fuel, you can only put that fuel into it. If you want to put a different fuel in, you have to remove the old one, and sink another tank.

[PostmodernProphet]

"According to the U.S. Census Bureau, as of 2002, there were 117,100 gas service stations in the U.S"

Do you have any idea how much it costs to put a new tank in the ground, and new pumps in every one of those?


don't need new pumps or tanks, just need to dedicate one to E85......


I don't think you can do that. Once you fill a tank with a certain fuel, you can only put that fuel into it. If you want to put a different fuel in, you have to remove the old one, and sink another tank.


we have one station here in town that sells E85......they did not put in a new tank......

[Shintao]

All politics aside, there are some things this country needs to do....

for example, with respect to our reliance on foreign oil...

we should:
1. pass a law that by 2010 every new vehicle sold in the US should be fitted to run on flex-fuel
2. pass a law that by 2012 every new vehicle sold in the US should be built to run on all three of electricity, hydrogen fuel cells, or flex-fuel....(Toyota is already doing it)
3. pass a law that by 2010 every gas station has at least one pump that distributes biofuels, either E85 or biodeisel
4. pass a law that by 2015 every vehicle on the road has to be capable of running flex fuel


we could eliminate foreign oil imports by 2012.....


You migh uncap the oil wells accross California and make a bigger Hummer. I am thinking about an observation deck in the rear roof area. And a bigger engine for those 40 degree slopes.

[Truth_and_Power]

Hmmm....So then, a low in Saturn would run about ...oh...$85,000. Yeah, good idea PP! :drool:


Is that supposed to be "a low end Saturn will run about $85,000"? You're way way off there. There might be a 5-12k increase in the cost to do flexfuel, electric, batteries, etc.. I would (wild) guess. And that cost will decrease as we get better at it and do it more, whereas the price of the foreign oil will go the only direction it ever has (up).

We must consider the risk as a country, would you rather have a solution whose price you can confidently establish or a solution that depends on a tricky and expensive foreign policy? Unless there is some end-around like profiting when the oil sands price in to the market or surviving on the present plan until technological solutions mature, it does not make sense.

Consider the idea that if we did not need foreign oil, the 23% of americans who can find iran, iraq, or even the persian gulf on a map could be reduced back to its natural 7% in under a decade. We would not be at war with anyone in that region if they weren't living on the most important resource for our economic survival.

[Troubadour]

1. pass a law that by 2010 every new vehicle sold in the US should be fitted to run on flex-fuel


Unnecessary. Just establish gasoline tax rates at a level commensurate to the externalities caused by its consumption, and credits for other modes commensurate to their external benefit. I don't know for certain whether current rates are at such a level, but I strongly suspect not.


4. pass a law that by 2015 every vehicle on the road has to be capable of running flex fuel


Presumably excepting cars that are fully electric, like Tesla.


we could eliminate foreign oil imports by 2012.....


We could eliminate most oil usage period by 2010, but it would involve the largest infrastructure project in the history of the world, dwarfing even China's Three Gorges Dam in scale, expense, and perhaps local environmental sacrifice: We would have to convert a few percent of the Mojave desert into solar fields, and once completed and fed into the grid, mandate electric vehicles exclusively. Aircraft and cargo ships would take longer to sort out, so they would still be using some form of fossil fuel for a while.

[apdst]

1. pass a law that by 2010 every new vehicle sold in the US should be fitted to run on flex-fuel
2. pass a law that by 2012 every new vehicle sold in the US should be built to run on all three of electricity, hydrogen fuel cells, or flex-fuel....(Toyota is already doing it)
3. pass a law that by 2010 every gas station has at least one pump that distributes biofuels, either E85 or biodeisel
4. pass a law that by 2015 every vehicle on the road has to be capable of running flex fuel

That'll work just fine. We'll conserve millions of barrels of oil, because Average Joe can't afford an eight hundred dollar a month car note, nor is a crediter going to go ten years on a new car loan.

[PostmodernProphet]

That'll work just fine. We'll conserve millions of barrels of oil, because Average Joe can't afford an eight hundred dollar a month car note, nor is a crediter going to go ten years on a new car loan.

why would it require an $800 a month car note.....they can convert their existing vehicle to run on flex fuel for $500 and Toyota has produced vehicles that run on all three fuel sources for no more money than vehicles which do not......

[Buck Laser]

That'll work just fine. We'll conserve millions of barrels of oil, because Average Joe can't afford an eight hundred dollar a month car note, nor is a crediter going to go ten years on a new car loan.

why would it require an $800 a month car note.....they can convert their existing vehicle to run on flex fuel for $500 and Toyota has produced vehicles that run on all three fuel sources for no more money than vehicles which do not......

I wouldn't be too surprised if 10 year car loans aren't out there, given the fact that most cars are good for about 250,000 miles. I've kept several cars for ten years and sold them before they became unduly troublesome.

As to "flex-fuel," hasn't GM been advertising that its 2007 & 8 models are flex-fuel capable?

Personally, I question whether or not flex-fuel is going to do much for anybody. Flex-fuel doesn't burn any cleaner than gasolne, and it takes an awful lot of food producing land out of service. No one on DF but me seems to think that simply increasing energy efficiency is gonna do much good, but I think it's the only way that's gonna pay off in the long run. We are facing the imminent end of our sources of petroleum energy, despite the touching faith some exhibit in the energy fairy. Nobody here seems to give a shit about climate change, because they either don't believe it, or (more likely) they don't wanna subject themselves to any inconvenience.

If a REAL prophet were to come along and look at the way we waste energy, he'd have a shit fit and report back to God that these people aren't WORTH saving.:fight: Even on the outside chance that you guys might be right, I'm gonna feel a lot better doing what simple things I can to conserve energy and reduce the waste I produce. I'll at least get to feel morally superior! :nana: :blah:

[apdst]

why would it require an $800 a month car note.....

Most hybrids start at 40 g's.

[PostmodernProphet]

why would it require an $800 a month car note.....

Most hybrids start at 40 g's.


make that $23k, the Highlander SUV goes for $30k......not much different from gas engined models......http://www.hybridcarblog.com/2007/07/toyota-adds-cheaper-2008-prius-to.html

[Buck Laser]

why would it require an $800 a month car note.....

Most hybrids start at 40 g's.

Where did you get THAT figure? Mine was under $21K brand new and well-equipped. I'm pretty sure the Toyota Prius is about the same price. (I just checked the Toyota website--the price is $21,100, four years after I got my Honda Hybrid)

Are you really that ill-informed, or do you think that lying is OK? :love:

[apdst]

the Highlander SUV goes for $30k

Do the math on a thirty grand loan. I bought a truck for thirty grand in 2000 and the note was $630 for sixty months. Joe Blow can't afford that.

[Buck Laser]

the Highlander SUV goes for $30k

Do the math on a thirty grand loan. I bought a truck for thirty grand in 2000 and the note was $630 for sixty months. Joe Blow can't afford that.

That's a bit like saying the $150,000 house I live in is a $300,000 house because that's how much I'll pay over 30 years on the mortgage. I think you're just scrambling to find a way of avoiding owning up to a stupid mistake. But suit yerself. :madlaugh:

[apdst]

That's a bit like saying the $150,000 house I live in is a $300,000 house because that's how much I'll pay over 30 years on the mortgage.

No, that's a bit like saying that you're going to have a larger monthly note on a thirty thousand dollar vehicle now, than you would've had eight years ago.

The folks with bad credit don't half to worry about paying thirty grand for a vehicle that's nothing more than basic transportation.

I think you're just scrambling to find a way of avoiding owning up to a stupid mistake.

My numbers were wrong, a little, but I illustrated my point.

[PostmodernProphet]

Do the math on a thirty grand loan. I bought a truck for thirty grand in 2000 and the note was $630 for sixty months. Joe Blow can't afford that.

sorry apsdt, but I don't see the point....so they can't afford to buy a $30k car.....the non-hybrid car also costs $30k so they can't afford that either....what does that have to do with the thread?.......

[Buck Laser]

I think you're just scrambling to find a way of avoiding owning up to a stupid mistake.

My numbers were wrong, a little, but I illustrated my point.

You call 50% off a little off? :madlaugh: You must be one of Bush's economic advisers!