Former CIA Official: Mossad Behind Moghniyeh Killing

[December]

14/02/2008

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1874247/2/istockphoto_1874247_lebanon_flag_with_clipping_pat h.jpg

Tens of thousands are flock into Beirut's southern suburb to take part in the funeral of Hezbollah commander martyr Imad Moghniyeh. They will take part in prayers and will then hear attentively to Hezbollah's position as it will be announced by the party's Secretary General Sayyed Hasan Nasrallah.

"Let us make our voice heard by all the enemies and murderers that we will be victorious, no matter the sacrifices," said Hezbollah's statement that called for participation in the funeral.
Hezbollah and Iran, have accused Israel of Moghniyeh's assassination. Israel denied any involvement, but officials made no effort to conceal their approval of his death. The United States welcomed it.

FORMER CIA OFFICIAL: MOSSAD BEHIND MOGHNIYEH KILLING
"Evidence in Damascus car bombing points to Israel," says Bruce Riedel, former advisor to three US presidents on Middle Eastern affairs. Riedel, who spent over 30 years with the CIA before serving as a senior advisor on South Asian and Middle East affairs under three US presidents, said Israel has already carried out similar operations in Syria. Riedel is currently a senior fellow with the Saban Center for Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institute. He said that Sayyed Nasrallah is also in the crosshairs; something the Israelis never stop saying.

Martyr Moghniyeh's body was laid in a refrigerated coffin, wrapped in Hezbollah's flag. His father - Fayez, a south Lebanese farmer - as well as Hezbollah's deputy leader, Sheikh Naim Kassem, and other Hezbollah officials received condolences inside a hall from allied Lebanese politicians and representatives of Palestinian factions.

HEZBOLLAH RETALIATION, MATTER OF HOW AND WHEN

Whoever carried out the operation demonstrated very impressive capabilities, in particular in collecting intelligence, Haaretz's Yossi Melman said in his analysis about the assassination of the Islamic Resistance's commander Imad Moghniyeh.

"For many years he was in the sights of Israeli intelligence and the CIA, as well as other Western intelligence agencies such as Britain's, but because Moghniyeh knew all this, he was doubly cautious," Melman added. He drew two opposite conclusions: one is that the killing was a message to Sayyed Hasan Nasrallah that created shock and awe in Hezbollah and the second conclusion is that in the long run Hezbollah will clearly recover from the killing and return to functioning normally. "The big and more important question arising from the killing in Damascus is not whether Hezbollah will respond, but how and when," Melman asked. He further analyzed the response saying it will not necessarily come immediately in a reflex action.

"Their response will also not be along the border, because it seems they have no evidence to tie Israel directly to the killing. We can also estimate that they will not attempt a mass terror attack in Israel. The more reasonable and likeliest possibility is that Hezbollah, with Iranian approval, will try to make a revenge attack against Israel overseas, in particular against an embassy. In this case it seems they will look for areas that are Israel's "soft underbelly" such as the Israeli Embassy in Jordan, Egypt or certain African capitals - where it will be easier for them to act surreptitiously," Melman analyzed.

Israel's security services have meanwhile issued orders to its embassies and delegations abroad to be on high alert, anticipating the possibility that Hezbollah will retaliate.

http://www.almanar.com.lb/NewsSite/NewsDetails.aspx?id=35615

http://www.asharqalawsat.com/english/images/2006/08/11/C22685964.jpg

RIP Imad Mughniyeh

[Cobra]

Good work Moosad.

[December]

Good work Moosad.


Are you happy?

[just a grunt]

I am.

[PatrickHenry]

Car bombings are too indiscriminate.

They have too much collateral damage.

They should not be used as counter terrorism measures.

To use car bombs in such a manner is to acknowledge that terror is a legitimate tool.

Terror Vs Terror makes it impossible for the lawful to take sides.

[Alonzo]

Any reliable sources?

[PostmodernProphet]

I think it's unlikely....Israel has never been shy about admitting their participation in assassinating Palestinian leaders....why would they start now?......

[Trish]

Whoever was responsible, it was long over due. While I agree that car bombs are not the best choice, taking out this guy was not a bad thing. Who was it that said that revenge is a dish best served cold? I certainly hope that those "tens of thousands" of Muslims that attended his funeral remember that. Somehow I don't think they will.

[ttriber]

Good work Mossad. One of the top Intelligence agencies in the world who only care for the security of Israel. We need an agency more suited like the Mossad in the US rather then some of the bureacracy in the CIA that has happend.

[el comandante]

Good work Mossad.

So you support terrorism then ? You support setting off car bombs that could kill or injure any number of civilians ?

Is it okay if Cuba decides to set off a car bomb in your country to get these two ? It is the moral equivelent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_Bosch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles

[Labrocca]

Of course this was Mossad...and good for them. One less terrorist in the world.

From your own post December:

"Let us make our voice heard by all the enemies and murderers that we will be victorious, no matter the sacrifices,"

Lately the terrorists have resorted to killing with their own women. Next it will be children. "No matter the sacrifices"...what a motto. Revenge is in their eyes everything. Hatred is what drives Hezbollah not it's desire to better the living standards of the Palestinians.

So you support terrorism then ? You support setting off car bombs that could kill or injure any number of civilians ?

The difference is the target. Terrorist target innocent civiliands. Military targets such as Hezbollah leaders are fair game. If collatoral damage occurs that's just part of war itself and an ugly side-effect. Killing isn't always terrorism.

[el comandante]

The difference is the target. Terrorist target innocent civiliands. Military targets such as Hezbollah leaders are fair game. If collatoral damage occurs that's just part of war itself and an ugly side-effect. Killing isn't always terrorism.


So if Cuba decides to bomb miami to get these two that is fine, right ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_Bosch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles

[Labrocca]

Bomb Miami? How many people died in the assassination of Imad Mughniyah? Oh that's right..JUST HIM. Yes it was a bomb that got him...but obviously intelligent and moral assassination that minimized collateral damage. There were no innocent lives lost in this killing.

And if Cuba wants to put a hit out on someone then they can go for it. However just as Israel expects retaliation you can bet America wouldn't just stand-by for it.

I don't argue the right or wrongs of war. It's war. It's hell. It's killing and death. It's murders and assassination in today's world of terrorism. These are the rules laid out by the Extreme Islamist one day hopefully we will catch on and just A-Bomb them out of existence.

[el comandante]

Bomb Miami? How many people died in the assassination of Imad Mughniyah? Oh that's right..JUST HIM. Yes it was a bomb that got him...but obviously intelligent and moral assassination that minimized collateral damage. There were no innocent lives lost in this killing.

There could have been with the use of such a primitive device. And i should have said a car bomb in miami.

And if Cuba wants to put a hit out on someone then they can go for it. However just as Israel expects retaliation you can bet America wouldn't just stand-by for it.

I wonder why its only those in the empire and backed by the empire who make those arguments.

What if Russia took that attitude. They could start setting bombs off in London to get the Chechnyan terrorists we hide. It could end up in WW3.


I don't argue the right or wrongs of war. It's war. It's hell. It's killing and death. It's murders and assassination in today's world of terrorism. These are the rules laid out by the Extreme Islamist one day hopefully we will catch on and just A-Bomb them out of existence.


There are more terrorists in the world than just Islamic terrorists. It is your country who protects terrorists who blew up a civilian aeoroplane. I can almost smell the stench of hypocrisy. The Americans are at war on terror, yet they protect terrorists.

And A bomb them. Do you have any thought for all the civilians, the sheer masses of them who would be caught up in that ? That is such a ludicrous statement, i am honestly struggling to get my head round it. I dont know whether to laugh or cry at the the thought of someone wanting to see that.

[Trish]

I wonder why its only those in the empire and backed by the empire who make those arguments.

What if Russia took that attitude. They could start setting bombs off in London to get the Chechnyan terrorists we hide. It could end up in WW3.




Russia has. Remember Alexander Litvinenko? Assassinated in Britain by Russian agents with radioactive polonium? Sure it wasn't a car bomb - but Litvinenko is just as dead. And Putin and Russian military leaders have been quite vocal about using Russian missiles lately as well.

[December]

Assafir: 50,000 Hezbollahis in State of High Alert

16/02/2008
The Lebanese newspaper Assafir reported Saturday that the Hezbollah has put 50,000 of its resistance fighters in a state of high alert and evacuated all buildings in the area designated for social or political purposes in recent days. Hezbollah vowed to retaliate the assassination of it resistance commander Imad Moghniyeh who was killed in Damascus by Mossad agents. Israel has denied any involvement.

Meanwhile, another Lebanese newspaper, Al-Akhbar, reported that Lebanese officials believe a serious military confrontation with Israel will erupt in the near future. "This possibility has been raised in intensive discussions being held between Hezbollah officials and Iranian and Syrian officials. The various militant Palestinian organizations have also declared a state of high alert," the report added.

http://www.almanar.com.lb/NewsSite/NewsDetails.aspx?id=35725&language=en[hr]So if Cuba decides to bomb miami to get these two that is fine, right ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_Bosch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles


It sounds like America says - "Forget the legal system and laws, it's OK just to kill people who live far away from american continent."

If this is the case then USA should NOT complain if some one blows up those American politicians one by one who voted for the war in Serbia, Iraq and Afghanistan.[hr]Russia has. Remember Alexander Litvinenko? Assassinated in Britain by Russian agents with radioactive polonium? Sure it wasn't a car bomb - but Litvinenko is just as dead. And Putin and Russian military leaders have been quite vocal about using Russian missiles lately as well.


Russia demands evidence in Litvinenko case

25/ 07/ 2007

MOSCOW, July 25 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian Prosecutor General's Office has not yet received a single document in the Alexander Litvinenko murder case from Britain, a senior investigator said Wednesday.

In an interview with the daily Rossiiskaya Gazeta to be published Thursday, Andrei Mayorov said: "We have not received a single document in the Litvinenko case. Technically, we do not even know what he died of, as unfortunately, we have received all our information about the Polonium-210 poisoning from so-called open sources."

Source - http://en.rian.ru/russia/20070725/69670195.html

[Truth Detector]

The difference is the target. Terrorist target innocent civiliands. Military targets such as Hezbollah leaders are fair game. If collatoral damage occurs that's just part of war itself and an ugly side-effect. Killing isn't always terrorism.


So if Cuba decides to bomb miami to get these two that is fine, right ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_Bosch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles


What an absurd statement, but then, absurd and the bizzarre seem to be the norm for you and your Communist pals.

The notion that a Cuban terrorist should be blown up in the US just because it happened in Syria, a country where this murderer found refuge, is more of the typical extremist rhetorical nonsense the Communist/Socialists on the forum engage in.

These two men should be extradited, but to where? Venezuela? Cuba?

The reason they are still out is because that vaunted US civilian court, the same one you all think would be so perfect in trying Middle Eastern terrorists at Guantanamo, let them both go.

I suggest you read your own, less than credible, sources before you make such absurd and preposterous comments:

[edit] Immigration fraud charges dismissed
On May 8, 2007 U.S. district judge Kathleen Cardone dismissed seven counts of immigration fraud and ordered Posada's electronic bracelet removed. In a 38 page ruling Judge Cardone criticized the U.S. government's "fraud, deceit and trickery" during the interview with immigration authorities that was the basis of the charges against Posada.[36]

She stated the interview was poorly translated for him, "No effective communication existed between defendant and the interviewers." She wrote in her decision, "In light of the fact that the indictment in this case is based upon statements made during the naturalization interview, this court finds that the interpretation is so inaccurate as to render it unreliable as evidence of defendant's actual statements."[36]

His naturalization interview lasted eight hours over two days. The usual maximum for such interviews is 30 minutes. The interview was a "pretext for a criminal investigation", "[the] defendant did not receive an explanation of the true import of the government's inquiry" and "[the] defendant had few options, and the government took advantage of his situation and manipulated it to serve its own ends", she said in her ruling.[36]

The government gave Posada "warnings" before conducting the interview but they were read to him in English without any translation, and his attorney was repeatedly told that if Posada exercised his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination, it would result in termination of the interview. "More importantly, defendant did not receive an explanation of the true import of the government's inquiry", she wrote.[36]

"This court finds the government's tactics in this case are so grossly shocking and so outrageous as to violate the universal sense of justice. As a result, this court is left with no choice but to dismiss the indictment." [36]

"As with each and every defendant who comes before this court, defendant in this case is entitled to certain rights under the United States Constitution. This court will not set aside such rights nor overlook government misconduct because defendant is a political hot potato. This court's concern is not politics, it is the preservation of criminal justice", states her decision.[36]

The Justice Department and the Department of Homeland Security said they were reviewing Judge Cardone's decision.[36]

It appears that our loony justice system doesn't believe in deporting or incarcerating terrorists either. What a shocker eh??

These two men should be extradited, however, the notion that they would be treated fair in a Cuban or Venezuelan court is beyond absurd.

[ttriber]

Truth Detector you hit it on the nail with Luis Posades Carriles. Just look at cuba how many thouands of people have they killed for nothing? Too many to count and for the cuban government to claim Luis Posada carriles a terrorist is laughable to the killings they have done to their own political prisoners as well as others they oppose.

[el comandante]

The notion that a Cuban terrorist should be blown up in the US just because it happened in Syria, a country where this murderer found refuge, is more of the typical extremist rhetorical nonsense the Communist/Socialists on the forum engage in.

I didnt say Cuba should blow up those two. I am saying that people like you ought to support it, since you support killing terrorists by terrorism. And those murderers have found refuge in the US, so why not bomb them like happened in Syria.

Its one rule for the empire and its cronies and another for the rest of us in your books.


These two men should be extradited, but to where? Venezuela? Cuba?
Of course.


The reason they are still out is because that vaunted US civilian court, the same one you all think would be so perfect in trying Middle Eastern terrorists at Guantanamo, let them both go.


Bosch is free because of the war criminals brother Jeb Bush. He pardoned him. So given his brothers definition of terrorist, he is a terrorist


I suggest you read your own, less than credible, sources before you make such absurd and preposterous comments:
Cant you just accept the fact that your country protects terrorists, and people like you support terrorism. You just dont like when others take it up against you. I can almost smell the hypocrisy from here.[hr]
Truth Detector you hit it on the nail with Luis Posades Carriles. Just look at cuba how many thouands of people have they killed for nothing? Too many to count and for the cuban government to claim Luis Posada carriles a terrorist is laughable to the killings they have done to their own political prisoners as well as others they oppose.


You know nothing about killings in Cuba. Start backing such ridiculous claims up with evidence please.

And its laughable that a man who blew up an aeroplane with civilians, women and children on it is a terrorist. That is a truly disgusting thing to say. people in your country should know better.

[ttriber]

You know nothing about killings in Cuba. Start backing such ridiculous claims up with evidence please.

And its laughable that a man who blew up an aeroplane with civilians, women and children on it is a terrorist. That is a truly disgusting thing to say. people in your country should know better.


Here's cuba Human rights practices in a nut shell.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61723.htm

The nonprofit group Cuba Archive, www.cubaarchive.org, has documented 9,074 cases of people who have died fighting against the regime or trying to escape the island since the Cuban revolution in 1959.

I do know alot more then you about cuba I actually lived their for 13 years and I'm lucky enough to escaped the island.

Disgusting, is seeing your family disappear because you don't agree with the cuban regime. That is disgusting and their is no major proof Jose Posada Carriles did what you claim of killing those in the airplane. Its what the cuban government wants the public to hear.

You my friend live in scotland, what do you know of living in a communist nation? You have lived in a privileged society probably your whole life. Have you ever experienced a family being arrested because they disagreed with the government, banned from protesting, banned from traveling. Tried to escape in a boat to go 90 miles north in order to find freedom and get a better life. I highly doubt any of this that I have said you have experienced maybe you should live in a communist nation and see how great it is like you profess. Most of the stuff you give out as information for Carriles is no big deal to what Castro and his cronies have done for the past 50 years.

[apdst]

Car bombings are too indiscriminate.

They have too much collateral damage.

They should not be used as counter terrorism measures.

To use car bombs in such a manner is to acknowledge that terror is a legitimate tool.

It depends on the target. In this case, it was a high value target. It's not as if the targateers were trying to create mass civilian casualties in a pizza parlor. A 500 pound bomb wouldn't be any less descriminating.

[el comandante]

You know nothing about killings in Cuba. Start backing such ridiculous claims up with evidence please.

And its laughable that a man who blew up an aeroplane with civilians, women and children on it is a terrorist. That is a truly disgusting thing to say. people in your country should know better.


Here's cuba Human rights practices in a nut shell.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61723.htm

The nonprofit group Cuba Archive, www.cubaarchive.org, has documented 9,074 cases of people who have died fighting against the regime or trying to escape the island since the Cuban revolution in 1959.

I do know alot more then you about cuba I actually lived their for 13 years and I'm lucky enough to escaped the island.

Disgusting, is seeing your family disappear because you don't agree with the cuban regime. That is disgusting and their is no major proof Jose Posada Carriles did what you claim of killing those in the airplane. Its what the cuban government wants the public to hear.

You my friend live in scotland, what do you know of living in a communist nation? You have lived in a privileged society probably your whole life. Have you ever experienced a family being arrested because they disagreed with the government, banned from protesting, banned from traveling. Tried to escape in a boat to go 90 miles north in order to find freedom and get a better life. I highly doubt any of this that I have said you have experienced maybe you should live in a communist nation and see how great it is like you profess. Most of the stuff you give out as information for Carriles is no big deal to what Castro and his cronies have done for the past 50 years.


You can first of all forget about your US propaganda link. I'm hardly going to take a lecture from the US on human rights. They are biggest human rights abusers on the planet.

And your poor argument is summed up in this line

The nonprofit group Cuba Archive, www.cubaarchive.org, has documented 9,074 cases of people who have died fighting against the regime or trying to escape the island since the Cuban revolution in 1959

You say that as if it is a reflection on the government and their wrong doings. It is not. If you fight a legitimate sovereign government you can expect to die.

On the point of leaving the island and dying, that can hardly be blamed on the revolution - it's their own fault.

As for political opponents being arrested, do you think i'm really going to feel sorry for criminals being arrested ? These capitalists, former exploiters, wannabe exploiters and agents of the US. you really think i have pity for them ? If you look to bring down a government that has brought hope to the hopeless, educated the uneducated, fed the poor, raised life expectancy to first world standards and got the empire out of the country, all of this on the tightest of resources, then you deserve to go to prison.

[PatrickHenry]

Car bombings are too indiscriminate.

They have too much collateral damage.

They should not be used as counter terrorism measures.

To use car bombs in such a manner is to acknowledge that terror is a legitimate tool.

It depends on the target. In this case, it was a high value target. It's not as if the targateers were trying to create mass civilian casualties in a pizza parlor. A 500 pound bomb wouldn't be any less descriminating.
Well, honestly, I have a problem with extrajudicial killings.

I don't mean that his life should have been spared, I just favor the rule of law.

Carbombings are in much the same vein as lynchings.

[ttriber]

You know nothing about killings in Cuba. Start backing such ridiculous claims up with evidence please.

And its laughable that a man who blew up an aeroplane with civilians, women and children on it is a terrorist. That is a truly disgusting thing to say. people in your country should know better.


Here's cuba Human rights practices in a nut shell.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61723.htm

The nonprofit group Cuba Archive, www.cubaarchive.org, has documented 9,074 cases of people who have died fighting against the regime or trying to escape the island since the Cuban revolution in 1959.

I do know alot more then you about cuba I actually lived their for 13 years and I'm lucky enough to escaped the island.

Disgusting, is seeing your family disappear because you don't agree with the cuban regime. That is disgusting and their is no major proof Jose Posada Carriles did what you claim of killing those in the airplane. Its what the cuban government wants the public to hear.

You my friend live in scotland, what do you know of living in a communist nation? You have lived in a privileged society probably your whole life. Have you ever experienced a family being arrested because they disagreed with the government, banned from protesting, banned from traveling. Tried to escape in a boat to go 90 miles north in order to find freedom and get a better life. I highly doubt any of this that I have said you have experienced maybe you should live in a communist nation and see how great it is like you profess. Most of the stuff you give out as information for Carriles is no big deal to what Castro and his cronies have done for the past 50 years.


You can first of all forget about your US propaganda link. I'm hardly going to take a lecture from the US on human rights. They are biggest human rights abusers on the planet.

And your poor argument is summed up in this line

The nonprofit group Cuba Archive, www.cubaarchive.org, has documented 9,074 cases of people who have died fighting against the regime or trying to escape the island since the Cuban revolution in 1959

You say that as if it is a reflection on the government and their wrong doings. It is not. If you fight a legitimate sovereign government you can expect to die.

On the point of leaving the island and dying, that can hardly be blamed on the revolution - it's their own fault.

As for political opponents being arrested, do you think i'm really going to feel sorry for criminals being arrested ? These capitalists, former exploiters, wannabe exploiters and agents of the US. you really think i have pity for them ? If you look to bring down a government that has brought hope to the hopeless, educated the uneducated, fed the poor, raised life expectancy to first world standards and got the empire out of the country, all of this on the tightest of resources, then you deserve to go to prison.


You are close minded and Ignorant you won't take facts but you will spread your propraganda every where. You can't take advice from somebody who actually lived in cuba but you can accept the propraganda from your leftist websites.

That is exactly a communist. The criminals weren't capitalist they were ordinary joes who disagreed with the government I haven't seen anybody in the US thrown in jail because they disagree with something the President has said. Their is freedom of speech and freedom of expression here in the USA. You just won't accept the truth and that is your problem.

BTW the prorpanganda you claim is a non-profit organization they are neutral.

"They are biggest human rights abusers on the planet".

The US has never done what the cubans have done to their nation for over 50 years. You have never lived in Cuba so what argument do you have. I lived their and I saw how it was and how the government intruded into your life If you didn't check up with the local police on where you were going for vacation you would be thrown in jail.

I don't see that happening in the USA. But of course Mr.Castro lover has never lived in cuba so what the hell is the point of arguing with a fool who doesn't now jack squat about communist cuba or about the Dictator just his communist websites. Have first hand knowledge before you spread your propraganda buddy.

[el comandante]

You are close minded and Ignorant you won't take facts but you will spread your propraganda every where. You can't take advice from somebody who actually lived in cuba but you can accept the propraganda from your leftist websites.

That is exactly a communist. The criminals weren't capitalist they were ordinary joes who disagreed with the government I haven't seen anybody in the US thrown in jail because they disagree with something the President has said. Their is freedom of speech and freedom of expression here in the USA. You just won't accept the truth and that is your problem.

BTW the prorpanganda you claim is a non-profit organization they are neutral.

"They are biggest human rights abusers on the planet".

The US has never done what the cubans have done to their nation for over 50 years. You have never lived in Cuba so what argument do you have. I lived their and I saw how it was and how the government intruded into your life If you didn't check up with the local police on where you were going for vacation you would be thrown in jail.

I don't see that happening in the USA. But of course Mr.Castro lover has never lived in cuba so what the hell is the point of arguing with a fool who doesn't now jack squat about communist cuba or about the Dictator just his communist websites. Have first hand knowledge before you spread your propraganda buddy.

:lmao: :lmao: Going on your logic, as neither of us lived in Nazi Germany we cant know it was bad. Re think your position please - it is loaded with emotion and may be the result of capitalist brainwashing.

And dont even try to compare Cuba to the "great enemy of mankind". It isn't Cuba who killed millions of Vietnamese, Iraqi's and Afghans. It wasn't Cuba who overthrew the democratic governments of Chile and the Congo to name a couple.


America may have 'freedom' of media and political association, but only the rich can afford to broadcast their ideas and fund their politics.

And your Cuba archive are far from unbiased, they are politically motivated and linked to the empire. Just because they are non profit doesnt make them good and just, the National Endowment for Democracy is proof of that.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=14042

[apdst]

Well, honestly, I have a problem with extrajudicial killings.

I don't mean that his life should have been spared, I just favor the rule of law.

He was a combatant leader. He doesn't get due process.

[PatrickHenry]

I guess that killing any CinC rates the same, huh?

Even if it takes a carbomb?

Hoo, boy....

[apdst]

I guess that killing any CinC rates the same, huh?

Yes.

Even if it takes a carbomb?

Dead's dead. Ain't it?

[PatrickHenry]

Well, I don't eagerly await the next bomb in DC that may take out our nation's leader.

[apdst]

Well, I don't eagerly await the next bomb in DC that may take out our nation's leader.

Nor do I, sir. And, if it happens, we will be forced to, again, take up arms and start kicking some ass.

[PatrickHenry]

Yet you legitimize that behavior.

[apdst]

Yet you legitimize that behavior.

And my condemnation of such behavoir is going to do, what? Make it go away? Stop it from happening? It just don't work that way in the real world.

[PatrickHenry]

OK...I guess it's OK with me for people to say and do any ol' outrageous thing then.

In the existential sense...does any of it really matter?

Why not just espouse...you name it?

No values anyhow, anyway...

[apdst]

An orange is an apple, because a vest has no sleeves.

[Truth Detector]

Well, I don't eagerly await the next bomb in DC that may take out our nation's leader.


The last time I looked, our nation’s leader was not a terrorist who deliberately targets innocent civilians to promote a fundamentalist ideology.

What level of profound ignorance does it take to compare George Bush to Imad Moghniyeh?

Although the offensive rhetoric that we are seeing from the forums leftists and deniers should not be surprising, it is still offensive in the extreme.

Let's look at this thugs history:

Western intelligence agencies long suspected Mughniyeh in the 1983 bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, Lebanon, that killed 63 people. He also is suspected in the truck bombing that year of the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, an attack that killed 241 people and preceded the U.S. military withdrawal from Lebanon.

Mughniyeh had been involved in training both terrorists in Iraq and some of the Shiite militia there, including elements of Moqtada al Sadr's army, two U.S. intelligence officials told CNN. The officials were not authorized to speak for attribution.

Mughniyeh also had a role in the 2006 kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers just prior to the outbreak of hostilities between Hezbollah and Israel in Lebanon, one of the officials said, and was involved in planning Hezbollah's military operations during that conflict.

Mughniyeh was involved in providing 50 tons of weapons to Palestinian terrorists in 2002, that official said.

Authorities blame Mughniyeh for the June 14, 1985, hijacking of TWA Flight 847, which gripped the attention of TV viewers around the world for more than two weeks.

Former CIA officer Robert Baer said Mughniyeh was "head and shoulders above any other terrorist in the world."

Mughniyeh reportedly destroyed all records and documents describing his past. He was believed to have been born in 1962, growing up in the Shiite neighborhoods of Beirut.

Palestinian militants recruited him as a teenager, and he eventually was in Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's elite guard. The 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon apparently further inflamed Mughniyeh's hatred for the Jewish state.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/02/13/hezbollah/index.html

So in summary, we are attempting here to suggest that blowing up Imad, a KNOWN terrorist, a thug, and a murderer would be the same as someone blowing up the US President.

I can't get to the level of ignorance that would be required to come up with such inane arguments.

[PatrickHenry]

So in summary, we are attempting here to suggest that blowing up Imad, a KNOWN terrorist, a thug, and a murderer would be the same as someone blowing up the US President.

I can't get to the level of ignorance that would be required to come up with such inane arguments.
Yet that's what apdst said...

[el comandante]

So in summary, we are attempting here to suggest that blowing up Imad, a KNOWN terrorist, a thug, and a murderer would be the same as someone blowing up the US President.

I can't get to the level of ignorance that would be required to come up with such inane arguments. [/color][/size][/font]


What it would be the same as is car bombing Orlando Bosch or Luis Posada Carilles in miami.

[Elrathin]

And my condemnation of such behavoir is going to do, what? Make it go away? Stop it from happening? It just don't work that way in the real world.


Yet you ask Muslims to do something about it. You just summed up why it is silly to say all Muslims are responsible for Radical Islam. Thank you.[hr]
So in summary, we are attempting here to suggest that blowing up Imad, a KNOWN terrorist, a thug, and a murderer would be the same as someone blowing up the US President.


The method used is the problem. Car bombs are a terrorist's tactic. Again, proving the point that many conservatives are ok with terrorism, as long as it suits them. The War on terror is one big sick joke because many conservatives are not against terrorism.

[apdst]

Yet you ask Muslims to do something about it. You just summed up why it is silly to say all Muslims are responsible for Radical Islam. Thank you.

Your attitude and refusal that they accept responsibility is all the excuse that Muslims need to either directly, or indirectly support Islamo-Facism.

Muslims on this very site have actually justified Islamic terrorism. So, it's not hard to figure out how Islamo-Facists have prospered within the Muslim Community.

[Truth Detector]

The method used is the problem. Car bombs are a terrorist's tactic. Again, proving the point that many conservatives are ok with terrorism, as long as it suits them. The War on terror is one big sick joke because many conservatives are not against terrorism.


The MAJOR difference is that this assassination of a KNOWN terrorist was selective and targeting JUST him. Terrorists target innocent victims who have done NOTHING other than be a convenient and easy target for the thugs and murderers you want to defend in this debate.

I find it telling that the people who defend the terrorists cannot distinguish the profound difference between targeting a specific person who has committed heinous crimes against humanity, and targeting completely innocent men women and children.

It is not terrorism when one kills a soldier in a fight, or a terrorist who is finding comfort hiding with our enemies. There is a profound difference. But in your blind denial, I would not expect anything other than your desperate attempts to suggest they are one and the same.

But then, I am finding that when it comes to the loony Left, logic and reason have long been abandoned in favor of lies, distortions and hyperbole.

[Elrathin]

The MAJOR difference is that this assassination of a KNOWN terrorist was selective and targeting JUST him.

Using a car bomb has the capability of killing other people, it is just by shear luck noone innocent was hurt. The many conservatives support for terrorists tactics show they are supporters of terrorism. The war on terror is a joke.


It is not terrorism when one kills a soldier in a fight, or a terrorist who is finding comfort hiding with our enemies.

Depends on the tactics used. We have rules of engagement that say otherwise. A soldier cannot kill an enemy using ANY means. There are rules to that and you know it.


But then, I am finding that when it comes to the loony Left, logic and reason have long been abandoned in favor of lies, distortions and hyperbole.


And the many conservatives that support terrorist tactics are not better than the terrorists. They revel and support terrorist tactics as long as it suits their needs. Win by any means is a terrorist goal as well. The many conservatives have a lot in common with Al-Q, they support their conservative philosophy.

[apdst]

The many conservatives support for terrorists tactics show they are supporters of terrorism. The war on terror is a joke.

Blowing up a bus load of kids with a car is a terrorist tactic. Killing a terrorist with a car bomb is an anti-terrorist tactic.

The delivery method of the weapon isn't a tactic, it's a weapon. There is a difference between a weapon and a tactic. You already know that.

[Truth Detector]

The many conservatives support for terrorists tactics show they are supporters of terrorism. The war on terror is a joke.

Blowing up a bus load of kids with a car is a terrorist tactic. Killing a terrorist with a car bomb is an anti-terrorist tactic.

The delivery method of the weapon isn't a tactic, it's a weapon. There is a difference between a weapon and a tactic. You already know that.


Fascinating that they just cant distinguish the difference or willfully deny the difference.

Again, it begs the question why? Are the sympathetic to terrorists? I think the answer is YES.

[jafar00]

Yet you ask Muslims to do something about it. You just summed up why it is silly to say all Muslims are responsible for Radical Islam. Thank you.

Your attitude and refusal that they accept responsibility is all the excuse that Muslims need to either directly, or indirectly support Islamo-Facism.

Muslims on this very site have actually justified Islamic terrorism. So, it's not hard to figure out how Islamo-Facists have prospered within the Muslim Community.


Firstly, let me point out that terrorism is in every way opposed to Islamic teachings so you cannot call it "Islamic" because it's use in this context is an oxymoron.

And which Muslim here has spoken in favour of terrorism?

[Elrathin]

Again, it begs the question why? Are the sympathetic to terrorists? I think the answer is YES. [/color][/size][/font]


Nope I don't support terrorists, I just don't support terrorist tactics being used on them, even though many on the right do. Many conservatives share the same ideology of "Win no matter what" with Al-Q. It's getting clear everyday that many on the right are closer to the ways of Al-Q than they think.

[jafar00]

The last time I looked, our nation’s leader was not a terrorist who deliberately targets innocent civilians to promote a fundamentalist ideology.

You post this, then quote something that goes on about him attacking MILITARY targets?


What level of profound ignorance does it take to compare George Bush to Imad Moghniyeh?


Bush's military might has been used to kill and subjugate millions of people in the Middle East. The comparison is easy. Bush just has more high tech bombs.

[Go Fish]

For these vermin to not only hide behind women and children, but to actually make them don explosives and then remotely blow them up denies the jihadists any semblance of humanity, and I find it ridiculous of you to assert some sort of moral equivalence between the cowards who fire from under skirts and the soldiers who fire back.
You are doing these heathens a great service by promoting their propaganda, Jafar.

[apdst]

Firstly, let me point out that terrorism is in every way opposed to Islamic teachings so you cannot call it "Islamic" because it's use in this context is an oxymoron.

It begs the question, again: why does terrorism exist in the Muslim community, more than any other group in the history of The World?

[qpute]And which Muslim here has spoken in favour of terrorism? [/quote]

You have, sir! You claimed that Hezbollah and Hamas are legitimate resistance orginizations.

Bush just has more high tech bombs.

Not to mention, we're the good guys. Historically, the bad guys always lose.

I just don't support terrorist tactics being used on them,

Point out the occasions where bus loads of Muslim kids were targetted in and effort to combat terrorists.

[Elrathin]

Point out the occasions where bus loads of Muslim kids were targetted in and effort to combat terrorists.


Car bombs are terrorist tactics.

[Go Fish]

No, RANDOM car bombs are terrorist tactics. Wiring a jihadist's personal vehicle with a ticket to Virginland is an art form.
Do a Google for "Exploding phone Israel engineer". One of my favorite executions.

[Elrathin]

Wiring a jihadist's personal vehicle with a ticket to Virginland is an art form.



Do me a favor show me NO INNOCENT can be killed doing the "Art form" you so claim.

In fact on this very board I can show you the conservatives in support claiming that innocent people killed would be considered "collateral damage". Do you agree with such things. And if you do what makes you better than any terrorist that claims collateral damage for what they claim?

[apdst]

Car bombs are terrorist tactics.

Targetting a pre-school, is a terrorist tactic. Doesn't much matter what they use to blow it up with.

[Elrathin]

Targetting a pre-school, is a terrorist tactic. Doesn't much matter what they use to blow it up with.


And using car bombs that have the capability of hurting more than the terrorist are terrorist tactics no matter what you place them as. I guess many conservatives support terrorists afterall.

[Go Fish]

Wiring a jihadist's personal vehicle with a ticket to Virginland is an art form.



Do me a favor show me NO INNOCENT can be killed doing the "Art form" you so claim.

In fact on this very board I can show you the conservatives in support claiming that innocent people killed would be considered "collateral damage". Do you agree with such things. And if you do what makes you better than any terrorist that claims collateral damage for what they claim?


What are you worried about innocents for? I would like to see a link to your post decrying the use of mentally deficient women as ordnance mules for the market bombings of 2 weeks ago! Why you leftists refuse to acknowledge the murder of muslims by muslims is beyond me. Add to that the fact that you consider all the jihadists innocent while you condemn your own countrymen, and I really develop an attitude.
Of course, there isn't one of you who didn't agree with Ward Churchill. Don't even start, Pat.

[Elrathin]

What are you worried about innocents for? I would like to see a link to your post decrying the use of mentally deficient women as ordnance mules for the market bombings of 2 weeks ago! Why you leftists refuse to acknowledge the murder of muslims by muslims is beyond me. Add to that the fact that you consider all the jihadists innocent while you condemn your own countrymen, and I really develop an attitude.
Of course, there isn't one of you who didn't agree with Ward Churchill. Don't even start, Pat.


So you're excuse is because the enemy uses it we can as well?

[apdst]

So you're excuse is because the enemy uses it we can as well?

But, we're not targetting pre-schools and school busses.

[Elrathin]

But, we're not targetting pre-schools and school busses.


Could you guarntee no innocent would be killed by that car bomb? And if there was there are people on this board that said they would just be "collateral damage". Well ones collateral damage is another's terrorist victims.

[apdst]

Well ones collateral damage is another's terrorist victims.

Actually, collateral damage is when innocents die while a hard target is being destroyed. Terrorists victims are when the innocents are the actual hard target.

Could you guarntee no innocent would be killed by that car bomb?

Tell us which bomb does make that guarantee.

[Go Fish]

I can guarantee you that there were several people watching that vehicle 24/7, and that they only pulled the trigger when there were no civilians in danger.
That's how it's done. It's more of a pride thing than it is a public safety issue.

[Elrathin]

Actually, collateral damage is when innocents die while a hard target is being destroyed.

Um Al-Q has said that anyone supporting the U.s. stance in Iraq is subject to harm and thus a target.

Like I said another mans collateral damage is another mans terrorist victim.


Tell us which bomb does make that guarantee.


My point exactly so Al-Q saying that anyone they kill is collateral damage for working with the U.S. is no different.

Don't get me wrong. I think what the U.S. AND what AL-Q is doing is wrong. I don't think we should have invaded Iraq so I think all we have done is given each side targets to attack and the innocents involved are getting hurt.

I look at both sides as wrong, you just just look at Al-Q being wrong and anyone we kill as being "Oh sorry our bad" , 'I'm sure with your family killed you will gladly come to our side".. Which is bullshit.

If there were a foreign entity on U.S. soil I would fight with every breath I had to hold back the foreign attack. It's sad to know that obviously the conservatives of America wouldn't because they believe if a foreign entity comes on your soil to liberate you, you are to welcome them with open arms and obey them. Because after all they are here to liberate you.[hr]
I can guarantee you that there were several people watching that vehicle 24/7,


Ok your move, show me that guarantee now. I mean after all YOU GUARANTEE IT. So lets see your guarantee now in writing and documentation. Or are you saying you are full of bullshit?

[apdst]

My point exactly so Al-Q saying that anyone they kill is collateral damage for working with the U.S. is no different.

Only a Liberal would think like that.

[Elrathin]

Only a Liberal would think like that.


And only a conservative would think using a terrorist tactic is ok. Guess Conservatives have more in common with terrorists than thought.

[apdst]

Guess Conservatives have more in common with terrorists than thought.

At least I don't support the enemy, while condemning my own country.

[Elrathin]

At least I don't support the enemy, while condemning my own country.


No conservatives that support car bombs just support the enemy because they are using the same tactics. Good show. Good way to say you hate Al-Q by using the same methods. Wow. That's like telling a drug dealer they are wrong while snorting cocaine. Good show conservatives that support car bombs. You are just like Al-Q.

[Go Fish]

"Ok your move, show me that guarantee now. I mean after all YOU GUARANTEE IT. So lets see your guarantee now in writing and documentation. Or are you saying you are full of bullshit?"

If they weren't, I'll pay your damages. No shit, honest injun, cash on the barrel-head.

I guess that I can talk about the bread factory in Mogadishu. It served as the headquarters for Aidid's henchmen way back when. It was the perfect spot, because it was one wall away from a children's school on a very narrow street, and there really was no way to hit the place without hazarding the kids. The Pakistanis were given the lead on the city because Clinton wanted them to exact retribution for the ass-kicking they'd received at the hands of Aidid a few weeks earlier, but their slack asses weren't interested in anything other than lounging around under the protection of US air cover, particularly since the Paki commander was involved with a 16 year-old girl with broken teeth.
Sure, it sounds far-fetched, but everything I am writing is gospel. I worked closely with the military component which brought back pictures of all of this (Including the Paki pubah porking the toothless teen) but the big deal was how to destroy the bread factory without so much as endangering the schoolkids (Or the school) nextdoor. It couldn't be taken by a mounted assault, walking in wasn't an option, and we didn't have PGM's small enough to guarantee that no kids would be hurt, so it was by-passed.
Devout Muslims don't respect women or children, so they have no problem hiding behind them. They know that Westerners (Christians, if you will) hold women and children in high regard, so they figure it's a safe bet that we won't shoot through a child to kill a guy carrying an RPG.
This guy was taken out surgically because it had the dual impact of showing that the bastard wasn't safe anywhere, and that hiding behind babies wasn't enough to keep him alive.
It was a textbook kill, and one that, once declassified, needs to be taught at every specwar school.
The only good jihadi is a dead jihadi. May they all rot in Hell.

[Elrathin]

"Ok your move, show me that guarantee now. I mean after all YOU GUARANTEE IT. So lets see your guarantee now in writing and documentation. Or are you saying you are full of bullshit?"

If they weren't, I'll pay your damages. No sh1t, honest injun, cash on the barrel-head.

I guess that I can talk about the bread factory in Mogadishu. It served as the headquarters for Aidid's henchmen way back when. It was the perfect spot, because it was one wall away from a children's school on a very narrow street, and there really was no way to hit the place without hazarding the kids. The Pakistanis were given the lead on the city because Clinton wanted them to exact retribution for the ass-kicking they'd received at the hands of Aidid a few weeks earlier, but their slack asses weren't interested in anything other than longing around under the protection of US air cover, particularly since the Paki commander was involved with a 16 year-old girl with broken teeth.
Sure, it sounds far-fetched, but everything I am writing is gospel. I worked closely with the military component which brought back pictures of all of this (Including the Paki pubah porking the toothless teen) but the big deal was how to destroy the bread factory without so much as endangering the schoolkids (Or the school) nextdoor. It couldn't be taken by a mounted assault, walking in wasn't an option. and we didn't have PGM's small enough to guarantee that no kids would be hurt, so it was by-passed.
Devout Muslims don't respect women or children, so they have no problem hiding behind them. They know that Westerners (Christians, if you will) hold women and children in high regard, so they figure it's a safe bet that we won't shoot through a child to kill a guy carrying an RPG.
This guy was taken out surgically because it had the dual impact of showing that the bastard wasn't safe anywhere, and that hiding behind babies wasn't enough to keep him alive.
It was a textbook kill, and one that, once declassified, needs to be taught at every specwar school.
The only good jihadi is a dead jihadi. May they all rot in Hell.


Go Fish you have shown NO GUARANTEE just empty rhetoric like most conservatives. Try again ok? I can actually read, putting shit with no paragraph seperation doesn't count as a guarantee ok?

[Go Fish]

You are officially on my "Phony Soldiers List". Thanks for playing, Sugar.

[Elrathin]

You are officially on my "Phony Soldiers List". Thanks for playing, Sugar.


Self Edit, not going to play the insult game.

[BoogyMan]

At least I don't support the enemy, while condemning my own country.


No conservatives that support car bombs just support the enemy because they are using the same tactics. Good show. Good way to say you hate Al-Q by using the same methods. Wow. That's like telling a drug dealer they are wrong while snorting cocaine. Good show conservatives that support car bombs. You are just like Al-Q.


They got the bad guy here without collateral damage if I understand correctly. Like it or not, this is a good thing.

[Elrathin]

The outcome was good, the method was not.

[BoogyMan]

The outcome was good, the method was not.


I don't have any problem with that statement. I am glad that they got the guy and no-one else was hurt.

[Truth Detector]

The outcome was good, the method was not.


I guess your better method would be a polite request to the Syrian Government who has been allowing him free access to their protection that they should turn over this terrorist or else we will be really really mad at them; Profound.

FACT: Known terrorist being protected by rogue nation called Syria.

FACT: Syria will do nothing to help extradite this terrorist to face justice.

FACT: Terrorist plotting and planning more innocent deaths to promote a terrorist agenda to destabilize the Middle East.

FACT: Appeasers and pacifists will never act on behalf of justice and always make excuses for doing nothing.

[Elrathin]

I guess your better method would be a polite request to the Syrian Government who has been allowing him free access to their protection that they should turn over this terrorist or else we will be really really mad at them; Profound.


Your guess is wrong. I just don't follow the doctrine of using terrorist tactics.

[Truth Detector]

I guess your better method would be a polite request to the Syrian Government who has been allowing him free access to their protection that they should turn over this terrorist or else we will be really really mad at them; Profound.


Your guess is wrong. I just don't follow the doctrine of using terrorist tactics.

Your argument that we follow the doctrine of using terrorist tactics has already been proved specious in previous responses.

That aside, why don't you argue what you think IS a better tactic for dealing with known terrorists who are being protected by rogue regimes?

[PatrickHenry]

That aside, why don't you argue what you think IS a better tactic for dealing with known terrorists who are being protected by rogue regimes?
You mean like Carriles? Arrest and try him, then stand him up in front of a firing squad...

[Truth Detector]

That aside, why don't you argue what you think IS a better tactic for dealing with known terrorists who are being protected by rogue regimes?
You mean like Carriles? Arrest and try him, then stand him up in front of a firing squad...


You mean Luis Posada Carriles'? The one this Government attempted to deport and had a Federal Judge release? The same guy who the Texas State Prosecutors are attempting to appeal the decision? How is this case similar to Imad Mugniyah's case?

Let's look at the facts you are trying to compare this with:

Imad - living with the protection of Syria even though he is wanted in numerous countries that have made numerous requests of the Syrian government to have him extradited.

Posada - caught after sneaking into America illegally and jailed. Put on trial with attorney representation to be deported. Found innocent by a Federal Judge in Texas and released. Case is now on appeal.

Imad - known for terrorist activities and connected with the deaths of thousands.

Posada - BELIEVED to have been responsible for attacks on hotels in Communist Cuba and the possible downing of an airliner.

I thought all you Bush hating pacifists believed in terrorist rights to an attorney and civilian court. Well that is exactly what is happening in this case.

In addition to your weak efforts to compare the Posada case to what happened to Imad Mugniyah in Syria, this administration has not agreed to his attorney's request for asylum.

It's fascinating watching the irony of pacifists and Bush haters and see how their views change almost as much as the weather.

So do you think Posada should have the same constitutional rights and protections you do, or was that just for the terrorists being held in Guantanamo?

I am all for extraditing Posada and deporting him to Venezuela or some other South American country, particularly if I know he will get a fair trial. But it appears to me that you have tried and convicted a man who was unsuccessfully prosecuted for violating our immigration laws. How well do you think the authorities would do here prosecuting for alleged airliner bombings where there is no physical evidence to connect him?

The ironies and hypocrisy in your positions are profound.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,167315,00.html

The order of dismissal was issued late Tuesday by Judge Kathleen Cardone of the Federal District Court in El Paso and took both sides by surprise. Judge Cardone wrote that the government engaged in “fraud, deceit and trickery” during Mr. Posada’s naturalization interview last year, thereby collecting the evidence it needed for his indictment.

The courts have blocked Mr. Posada’s extradition to Cuba or Venezuela, ruling that he could be subject to torture there. No other country has been willing to take him.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/10/us/10miami.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Prosecutors have appealed a judge's decision to dismiss an immigration fraud case against Luis Posada Carriles, an anti-Castro militant and former C.I.A. operative. Mr. Posada, 79, is wanted in Venezuela on charges that he plotted the deadly 1976 bombing of a Cuban jetliner from Caracas. Prosecutors filed the appeal Monday with the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit, in New Orleans. The case against Mr. Posada was dismissed in May after the judge, Kathleen Cardone of Federal District Court in El Paso, concluded that federal authorities used trickery, fraud and deceit in trying to pursue a case against Mr. Posada, who was accused of lying on an application and during an interview to become a naturalized citizen.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0DE0D7133DF93BA35752C1A9619C8B 63

[el comandante]

The US had no business trying Carilles it should have been left to Cuba and/or Venezuela. They also had no business pardoning Bosch.

Its also worth noting that Mugniyah is also only believed to be guilty of terrorism.

[Truth Detector]

The US had no business trying Carilles it should have been left to Cuba and/or Venezuela. They also had no business pardoning Bosch.

Its also worth noting that Mugniyah is also only believed to be guilty of terrorism.


Why, because you say so? So you are saying that if someone violates our laws by coming into it illegally, we should not prosecute them and deport them to their country of origin?

This Judge appears to not want to send him home for fear he will not get a fair trial. Are you against people getting treated fairly?

I would assume you argue for the fair treatment of the terrorists in Guantanamo do you not? Why then is it different for this thug?

As I stated, your hypocrisy is only exceeded by your historical ignorance and denial. People like you always want it BOTH ways. Life doesn’t work that way.

[el comandante]

The US had no business trying Carilles it should have been left to Cuba and/or Venezuela. They also had no business pardoning Bosch.

Its also worth noting that Mugniyah is also only believed to be guilty of terrorism.


Why, because you say so? So you are saying that if someone violates our laws by coming into it illegally, we should not prosecute them and deport them to their country of origin?

This Judge appears to not want to send him home for fear he will not get a fair trial. Are you against people getting treated fairly?

I would assume you argue for the fair treatment of the terrorists in Guantanamo do you not? Why then is it different for this thug?

As I stated, your hypocrisy is only exceeded by your historical ignorance and denial. People like you always want it BOTH ways. Life doesn’t work that way.


A fair trial ??? You think a fair trial is going to be given to agents fighting against a government who the US has been at war with for 50 years. The cold war didnt die with the Soviet Union. The chances of a fair trial in the US for an anti Cuban agent would be similar to that of a Nazi in Israel, or perhaps more so a pro American in North Korea.

Ofcourse i support a fair trialk, that is why Venezuela would be the best option. It is just unreasonable to suggest that a state that has tried to overthrow the government of Cuba is going to give 'alleged' terrorists with the same goal a fair trial.

And your people like me assumption is a poor attempt to personalise debate. But if we must personalise it, so be it, but i must ask you this, what are people like me ? I'm intrigued as to how you could know enough about someone who has made around 80 posts, so as to make generalisations about them.

[apdst]

The chances of a fair trial in the US for an anti Cuban agent would be similar to that of a Nazi in Israel, or perhaps more so a pro American in North Korea.

I don't understand your comparison.

[Truth Detector]

......but i must ask you this, what are people like me ? I'm intrigued as to how you could know enough about someone who has made around 80 posts, so as to make generalisations about them.


People like you who hate America, hate Democracy and make outrageously false claims to support Communists, Despots and terrorists.

Glad I could help you with that.

[el comandante]

People like you who hate America, hate Democracy and make outrageously false claims to support Communists, Despots and terrorists.

Glad I could help you with that.


Your words remind me off something Chomsky said along the lines off, when faced with uncomfortable truths the best that some can respond with is ridicule.

But still i will clarify my position for you. I am 100% against imperialism, so i am against the US empire. I am against capitalism so i'm against capitalist America, i dont hate democracy, i hate capitalist democracy.

As for false claims can you point to some for me ? And i am proud to call myself a friend of communism, i wont try to hide that. On despots and tyrants, it is not me who supports the Saudi regime, it is not me who is a friend of musharraf, i didnt support Pinochet, Castillo Armas, the Shah or Saddam, the US sure as hell did though.

[Truth Detector]

People like you who hate America, hate Democracy and make outrageously false claims to support Communists, Despots and terrorists.

Glad I could help you with that.


Your words remind me off something Chomsky said along the lines off, when faced with uncomfortable truths the best that some can respond with is ridicule.


What ridicule? Apparently I described your political positions quite accurately according to what you typed below. You are profound indeed in your denial.

But still i will clarify my position for you. I am 100% against imperialism, so i am against the US empire. I am against capitalism so i'm against capitalist America, i dont hate democracy, i hate capitalist democracy.

As for false claims can you point to some for me ? And i am proud to call myself a friend of communism, i wont try to hide that. On despots and tyrants, it is not me who supports the Saudi regime, it is not me who is a friend of musharraf, i didnt support Pinochet, Castillo Armas, the Shah or Saddam, the US sure as hell did though.


Let me clarify for you that there is no US Empire. The United States is not an Imperial Nation either. The fact that you are clueless about what these two terms means doesn't excuse your blatant misuse of the English Language.

As for not hating Democracy, obviously based on YOUR words you do. You are profound in your historic ignorance to take up such positions. However, it can only mean one thing, you do not believe in people having a say in their politics, you support dictatorships and you hate freedom.

Yes, profound positions all of them and as I stated, my comments about "people like you" are completely accurate.

As to your false claims, how much time does one have in a day? Basically, your entire being is based on false premise and lies. How else can one defend Communism while claiming to defend people's rights and freedoms? How profound is your historic ignorance on Communist regimes and their blatant disregard for human rights, the gulags, the political prisoners and their murders.

Yep, you are quite a piece of work; and so are the others like you. People like you certainly wouldn't know the truth if it walked up and introduced itself to you.

Carry on Comrade. I look forward to more of your lies, distortions and dispicable charactarizations of America.

[apdst]

i dont hate democracy, i hate capitalist democracy.

You can't have Democracy without Capitalism. So, I guess you hate Democracy, as Truth-Detector says.

[ttriber]

As for false claims can you point to some for me ? And i am proud to call myself a friend of communism, i wont try to hide that. On despots and tyrants, it is not me who supports the Saudi regime, it is not me who is a friend of musharraf, i didnt support Pinochet, Castillo Armas, the Shah or Saddam, the US sure as hell did though.

Good be proud of a killer who has been in Power for over 50 years Fidel Castro. How funny you mention those who you ridicule but who has been the worst one of these in the last century the one you have quotes for Fidel Castro. The man you admire and also the man who has put his people for 50 years in poverty and put thousands of them to their deaths for opposing his government and seperated normal families. He hates capitalism but remember how much he has in his secret banks approx. $900 million. He is considered the 7th richest head of state. Is that a hypocrite or just a money hungry communist. I believe both a man who has claimed the embargo is the worst thing that ever happend to him but again and again the riches he has abstained from it are ridiculous. Hypocrite Read my words Hypocrite and dictator who has crushed millions of cubans hopes because of his dumb idiotic regime. Worthless scum is what he is and since you want to support it why don't you go live in cuba since you are so inspired by a Hypocrite like this.

[el comandante]

Let me clarify for you that there is no US Empire. The United States is not an Imperial Nation either. The fact that you are clueless about what these two terms means doesn't excuse your blatant misuse of the English Language.
I think it is you fails to understand basic terms, hopefully these words will illuminate for you

"As long as imperialism exists, it will, by definition, exert its domination over other countries. Today that domination is called neocolonialism". - Che


As for not hating Democracy, obviously based on YOUR words you do. You are profound in your historic ignorance to take up such positions. However, it can only mean one thing, you do not believe in people having a say in their politics, you support dictatorships and you hate freedom.

Its rather absurd to be called ignorant given your positions. People dont have a say in capialist democracy. Capitalist democracy is an apparatus of the ruling class. The ruling class' economic control means they control all other institutions - such as politics. In your democracy you need to be wealthy or backed by the wealthy to truly have a voice and run for office. That is not people having freedom, that is freedom for the ruling class and the domination of the rest of us.

As to your false claims, how much time does one have in a day? Basically, your entire being is based on false premise and lies. How else can one defend Communism while claiming to defend people's rights and freedoms? How profound is your historic ignorance on Communist regimes and their blatant disregard for human rights, the gulags, the political prisoners and their murders.

Just one false claim would do, but you cant even come up with that. Pointing to a communist regime and saying that is representative of commmunism is like pointing to Bush and saying he is representative of democracy. It's a ridiculous position.

Yep, you are quite a piece of work; and so are the others like you. People like you certainly wouldn't know the truth if it walked up and introduced itself to you.

You are delving into the personalising of debate, it drags this argument from the already horrible gutter into the sewer. I shall do my utmost to not indulge you in your desire for insults.


Carry on Comrade. I look forward to more of your lies, distortions and dispicable charactarizations of America.


Despicable characterizations or a accurate description based upon despicable actions. I strongly suggest it is the latter.[hr]
i dont hate democracy, i hate capitalist democracy.

You can't have Democracy without Capitalism. So, I guess you hate Democracy, as Truth-Detector says.


Educate me, why does capitalism equate democracy, or rather why is capitalism a pre requisite of democracy ?[hr]
Good be proud of a killer who has been in Power for over 50 years Fidel Castro. How funny you mention those who you ridicule but who has been the worst one of these in the last century the one you have quotes for Fidel Castro. The man you admire and also the man who has put his people for 50 years in poverty and put thousands of them to their deaths for opposing his government and seperated normal families. He hates capitalism but remember how much he has in his secret banks approx. $900 million. He is considered the 7th richest head of state. Is that a hypocrite or just a money hungry communist. I believe both a man who has claimed the embargo is the worst thing that ever happend to him but again and again the riches he has abstained from it are ridiculous. Hypocrite Read my words Hypocrite and dictator who has crushed millions of cubans hopes because of his dumb idiotic regime. Worthless scum is what he is and since you want to support it why don't you go live in cuba since you are so inspired by a Hypocrite like this.



I am sorry all of your posts on this issue are clouded by emotion, it does make debate near impossible, but i'll give it a go. Here is the Cuban embassy's response to the ridiculous claim of Fidel's wealth. "It is a clumsy slander and a repugnant example of a campaign of lies perpetrated in the United States with the sole aim of justifying the criminal blockade of Cuba,"

Infact here is the methodology in estimating his wealth, it should highlight just how untenable this argument is. "In the past, we have relied on a percentage of Cuba's gross domestic product to estimate Fidel Castro's fortune," the article stated. "This year we have used more traditional valuation methods, comparing state-owned assets Castro is assumed to control with comparable publicly traded companies."

http://www.canf.org/2005/1in/noticias-de-Cuba/2005-mar-17-cuba-envoys-angered-by-forbes.htm

Cuban state owned companies are Cuban owned, not Fidel owned. The profits are the profits of the Cuban people, not the profits of Fidel.

I also find the idea that Fidel has put his people in poverty, infact fidel has saved them from poverty. Infant mortallity rates, lower than the US, total literacy, first world health care for all in a third world country. His achievements are remarkable.

Here is Fidels own offer to the capitalists "If they can prove that I have a bank account abroad, with $900m, with $1m, $500,000, $100,000 or $1 in it, I will resign". They never could though. All they could provide was a slander without evidence.


And again i'm goiung to have to ask for evidence of the thousands murdered. It's not a statement that can be allowed withouit concrete evidence.

[apdst]

Educate me, why does capitalism equate democracy, or rather why is capitalism a pre requisite of democracy ?

You can't have a Democracy without a free market.

[el comandante]

Educate me, why does capitalism equate democracy, or rather why is capitalism a pre requisite of democracy ?

You can't have a Democracy without a free market.


That is not an explanation, that is just paraphrasing what has already been said. What i asked for is WHY democracy requires capitalism.

[apdst]

What i asked for is WHY democracy requires capitalism.

Domocracy operates on total freedom. Without total freedom, there can be no true Democracy. If the government has the legal power to control the market, then they can just as easily have the power to control anything else. Bye, bye Democracy.

Allow me to use myself as an example. I only have a high school education and have built a small, but profitable business. I was able to do that because of a free market. In a trully free country, I've been able to do that.

[el comandante]

Domocracy operates on total freedom. Without total freedom, there can be no true Democracy. If the government has the legal power to control the market, then they can just as easily have the power to control anything else. Bye, bye Democracy.


Interesting, but i feel obliged to raise a few contentions. First off, i thought government was of the people and for the people. So if government controls aspects of the economy as a direct result of the peoples desires that is democracy, to restrict that conflicts with your basic principle that "democracy operates on total freedom". If the people dont have the freedom to make economic choices how can they be free and how can the system be truly democratic ? You see the contradiction, right ? You cant restrict freedom (refuse the people democratic economic control) to protect freedom (democracy)

[apdst]

So if government controls aspects of the economy as a direct result of the peoples desires that is democracy,

A direct result of which people? One faction dictates how the government controls the market, while everyone else has to sit back on suck on it? I think I'll pass on that one, tee.

You want to give the government control of the market. What makes you think that the government will do what the people want to do, in the first place?

[el comandante]

So if government controls aspects of the economy as a direct result of the peoples desires that is democracy,

A direct result of which people? One faction dictates how the government controls the market, while everyone else has to sit back on suck on it? I think I'll pass on that one, tee.

You want to give the government control of the market. What makes you think that the government will do what the people want to do, in the first place?


A rather selective line you selected to respond to. So do you recognise that if democracy requires unlimited freedom that to deny people the freedom to run the economy how they see fit, is to deny and restrict democracy ? That is the overriding point i made.

[apdst]

So do you recognise that if democracy requires unlimited freedom that to deny people the freedom to run the economy how they see fit, is to deny and restrict democracy ?

What'd I just say?

[el comandante]

Nothing that refutes my point. All you said was to imply that when the majority make a decision it is somehow not democratic, but that is how all democracies work, there is never total agreement, just one group is larger than another.

[apdst]

All you said was to imply that when the majority make a decision it is somehow not democratic, but that is how all democracies work, there is never total agreement, just one group is larger than another.

I'm saying that the people whould run the market, not the government, nor should the people impower the government to make desicions on how the market is run, hence a free market.

[el comandante]

All you said was to imply that when the majority make a decision it is somehow not democratic, but that is how all democracies work, there is never total agreement, just one group is larger than another.

I'm saying that the people whould run the market, not the government, nor should the people impower the government to make desicions on how the market is run, hence a free market.


But still, if a free market is forced it is not exactly free and so not democratic.

You simply cant overturn the will of the people o force free market in the name of democracy - it is a total contradiction.

[apdst]

if a free market is forced it is not exactly free and so not democratic.

You can't, "force", a free market. Just like you can't, "force", free speach.

You simply cant overturn the will of the people o force free market in the name of democracy

I doubt seriously that there is a sinlge group of people in The World that is that stupid.

[Truth Detector]

Let me clarify for you that there is no US Empire. The United States is not an Imperial Nation either. The fact that you are clueless about what these two terms means doesn't excuse your blatant misuse of the English Language.
I think it is you fails to understand basic terms, hopefully these words will illuminate for you

"As long as imperialism exists, it will, by definition, exert its domination over other countries. Today that domination is called neocolonialism". - Che


As for not hating Democracy, obviously based on YOUR words you do. You are profound in your historic ignorance to take up such positions. However, it can only mean one thing, you do not believe in people having a say in their politics, you support dictatorships and you hate freedom.

Its rather absurd to be called ignorant given your positions. People dont have a say in capialist democracy. Capitalist democracy is an apparatus of the ruling class. The ruling class' economic control means they control all other institutions - such as politics. In your democracy you need to be wealthy or backed by the wealthy to truly have a voice and run for office. That is not people having freedom, that is freedom for the ruling class and the domination of the rest of us.

As to your false claims, how much time does one have in a day? Basically, your entire being is based on false premise and lies. How else can one defend Communism while claiming to defend people's rights and freedoms? How profound is your historic ignorance on Communist regimes and their blatant disregard for human rights, the gulags, the political prisoners and their murders.

Just one false claim would do, but you cant even come up with that. Pointing to a communist regime and saying that is representative of commmunism is like pointing to Bush and saying he is representative of democracy. It's a ridiculous position.

Yep, you are quite a piece of work; and so are the others like you. People like you certainly wouldn't know the truth if it walked up and introduced itself to you.

You are delving into the personalising of debate, it drags this argument from the already horrible gutter into the sewer. I shall do my utmost to not indulge you in your desire for insults.


Carry on Comrade. I look forward to more of your lies, distortions and dispicable charactarizations of America.


Despicable characterizations or a accurate description based upon despicable actions. I strongly suggest it is the latter.[hr]
i dont hate democracy, i hate capitalist democracy.

You can't have Democracy without Capitalism. So, I guess you hate Democracy, as Truth-Detector says.


Educate me, why does capitalism equate democracy, or rather why is capitalism a pre requisite of democracy ?[hr]
Good be proud of a killer who has been in Power for over 50 years Fidel Castro. How funny you mention those who you ridicule but who has been the worst one of these in the last century the one you have quotes for Fidel Castro. The man you admire and also the man who has put his people for 50 years in poverty and put thousands of them to their deaths for opposing his government and seperated normal families. He hates capitalism but remember how much he has in his secret banks approx. $900 million. He is considered the 7th richest head of state. Is that a hypocrite or just a money hungry communist. I believe both a man who has claimed the embargo is the worst thing that ever happend to him but again and again the riches he has abstained from it are ridiculous. Hypocrite Read my words Hypocrite and dictator who has crushed millions of cubans hopes because of his dumb idiotic regime. Worthless scum is what he is and since you want to support it why don't you go live in cuba since you are so inspired by a Hypocrite like this.



I am sorry all of your posts on this issue are clouded by emotion, it does make debate near impossible, but i'll give it a go. Here is the Cuban embassy's response to the ridiculous claim of Fidel's wealth. "It is a clumsy slander and a repugnant example of a campaign of lies perpetrated in the United States with the sole aim of justifying the criminal blockade of Cuba,"

Infact here is the methodology in estimating his wealth, it should highlight just how untenable this argument is. "In the past, we have relied on a percentage of Cuba's gross domestic product to estimate Fidel Castro's fortune," the article stated. "This year we have used more traditional valuation methods, comparing state-owned assets Castro is assumed to control with comparable publicly traded companies."

http://www.canf.org/2005/1in/noticias-de-Cuba/2005-mar-17-cuba-envoys-angered-by-forbes.htm

Cuban state owned companies are Cuban owned, not Fidel owned. The profits are the profits of the Cuban people, not the profits of Fidel.

I also find the idea that Fidel has put his people in poverty, infact fidel has saved them from poverty. Infant mortallity rates, lower than the US, total literacy, first world health care for all in a third world country. His achievements are remarkable.

Here is Fidels own offer to the capitalists "If they can prove that I have a bank account abroad, with $900m, with $1m, $500,000, $100,000 or $1 in it, I will resign". They never could though. All they could provide was a slander without evidence.


And again i'm goiung to have to ask for evidence of the thousands murdered. It's not a statement that can be allowed withouit concrete evidence.


The above rants from El Comandante are proof of my claim that you should not do denial, denial leads to ignorance.

Carry on Comrade El Comandante, suffice it to say that attempting a coherent debate with someone who doesn't have the slightest clue about what Democracy is, what Empire means, what Dictators are is hardly worth the effort. I'd rather bang my head into a wall.

I will no longer attempt educating you on your ignorance of the world, but rather just point out when you are lying or distorting the TRUTH. Anything else is fruitless because reading, comprehending and understanding are not part of your repertoire.

[el comandante]

The above rants from El Comandante are proof of my claim that you should not do denial, denial leads to ignorance.

Carry on Comrade El Comandante, suffice it to say that attempting a coherent debate with someone who doesn't have the slightest clue about what Democracy is, what Empire means, what Dictators are is hardly worth the effort. I'd rather bang my head into a wall.

I will no longer attempt educating you on your ignorance of the world, but rather just point out when you are lying or distorting the TRUTH. Anything else is fruitless because reading, comprehending and understanding are not part of your repertoire.



Why do you never deal with the aspects of my post ? Why are you always reduced to making general slurs ? Either get down and dirty and get in about my arguments and disect them or stop making insults and stay out of the debate. You are always quick to tell me i am wrong or that i am a liar, but you are never so keen to illustrate why. I wonder why that is, it is most likely that you are unable to.[hr]
You can't, "force", a free market. Just like you can't, "force", free speach.
I'm afraid you can. If a majority of the people wish to close a certain newspaper down and the government refuses, that is a way of forcing free speech.

Our lets say the public wish to ban holocaust denial, as is the case in Austria. If the Austrian government were to refuse such a ban then the principal of free speech would have been forced against the will of the people.

Likewise if a clear minority seek state ownership of production, for the government to refuse is to force free markets on the people.

I really hope you now understand, it is simple begginners logic.

[apdst]

If a majority of the people wish to close a certain newspaper down and the government refuses, that is a way of forcing free speech.

Actually, they call that just plain freedom.

I really hope you now understand, it is simple begginners logic.

Oh, it's beginner's logic, alright; elementary, even, as in elementary school.

[Truth Detector]

Why do you never deal with the aspects of my post ? Why are you always reduced to making general slurs ? Either get down and dirty and get in about my arguments and disect them or stop making insults and stay out of the debate. You are always quick to tell me i am wrong or that i am a liar, but you are never so keen to illustrate why. I wonder why that is, it is most likely that you are unable to.[hr]
You can't, "force", a free market. Just like you can't, "force", free speach.

On NUMEROUS occasions I have illustrated and can clearly indicate how your comments are absurd, lacking any reality or facts and basically are the rantings of someone who has an agenda to promote the failed ideology of Communism.

The problem is that even if I buried you in the FACTS of how our Democracy truly works and the abject failure of Communism, you wouldn't get it. It's like talking to a wall.

In order to have a coherent debate, one first must be open to honest debate with the FACTS. You are incapable of it.

Let me illustrate this without any name calling: Show me ONE Communist regime that has provided it's inhabitants freedom to come and go as they please, to elect their representatives, has prosperity equal to the West’s and permits freedom of the press.

I will await your HONEST answer to this question.

[el comandante]

You seem to be mistaking me for someone who is arguing for communism here. I am arguing a very different thing : that democracy isnt democracy if the people cant choose the nature of their economy. Simple.

[Truth Detector]

You seem to be mistaking me for someone who is arguing for communism here. I am arguing a very different thing : that democracy isnt democracy if the people cant choose the nature of their economy. Simple.


Your argument makes no sense.

Are you suggesting that in the United States of America one cannot choose what economic endeavour they wish to pursue?

Are you suggesting that in the United States of America one cannot choose to pursue their economic interests in other countries?

What is your argument if not against Capitalism and for Communism?

There is a "free market" economy and then there is a communitarian or "socialist/communist" version. If you are arguing against the market economy which exists in the US, you must be for the communitarian economy which I can provide pages and pages of examples of its historic failures.

Which is it?
http://www.carroll.edu/~msmillie/busethics/economies.htm

[el comandante]

[font=Tahoma][size=medium][color=#008000]Your argument makes no sense.

Are you suggesting that in the United States of America one cannot choose what economic endeavour they wish to pursue?

Are you suggesting that in the United States of America one cannot choose to pursue their economic interests in other countries?

No i'm arguing against the earlier assertion that democracy requires a free market. I was showing how you cant have democracy if there is a free market forced against the will of the people. That is the only argument i have been making. It is simple logic, yet i have had to make several posts on it.

[preservanation]

...you cant have democracy if there is a free market forced against the will of the people.
now I've heard everything...
seriously

[el comandante]

...you cant have democracy if there is a free market forced against the will of the people.
now I've heard everything...
seriously


Do you debate the logic ? If we take this hypothetical situation. There is a country called xland. They are a 'democratic' country. They hold elections and a socialist party represent the majority, but there is a law forbidding nationalisation. If the wish of the people is nationalisation, but that is prevented then you dont have democracy.

If we take democracy as deriving from demos kratos then my argument is obviously correct.

Deriving from the Greek, Demos Kratos - People Power - Literally, direct self government and decision making by the people.

http://balafria.wordpress.com/2007/04/07/the-state-of-british-democracy/

[apdst]

that democracy isnt democracy if the people cant choose the nature of their economy. Simple.

And the people have chosen a free market system. It would be stupid to believe otherwise.

[Truth Detector]

Your argument makes no sense.

Are you suggesting that in the United States of America one cannot choose what economic endeavour they wish to pursue?


Are you suggesting that in the United States of America one cannot choose to pursue their economic interests in other countries?

No i'm arguing against the earlier assertion that democracy requires a free market. I was showing how you cant have democracy if there is a free market forced against the will of the people. That is the only argument i have been making. It is simple logic, yet i have had to make several posts on it.


I know I am going to regret asking this, as I am already regretting taking your comments serious, but just how is this economy being "forced" on the American people? Are you suggesting that they do not want this free market and some Government cabal is preventing them from having socialism?

[el comandante]

I know I am going to regret asking this, as I am already regretting taking your comments serious, but just how is this economy being "forced" on the American people? Are you suggesting that they do not want this free market and some Government cabal is preventing them from having socialism?


I didnt say i was talking about America. That is your assumption, i was only dealing with the claim that democracy requires a free market.

[apdst]

i was only dealing with the claim that democracy requires a free market.

No offense, but it's stupid to think that it doesn't.

[el comandante]

i was only dealing with the claim that democracy requires a free market.

No offense, but it's stupid to think that it doesn't.


Well then refute the logic of my argument. Illustrate why i am wrong. Make a logical argument why you are right. One liners dont cut it here i'm afraid. I made a perfectly good logical argument, several times i might add, and its up to you to provide a counter argument.

[apdst]

Illustrate why i am wrong.

Ok, Democracy requires absolute freedom. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

[ttriber]

El commandante is a brain washed individual. He won't accept facts but will accept government propraganda. Just so you know what your dealing with. He claims the cuban government is so great with their publicized propraganda of moratlity rates and literacy but it is of no use because it is all fabricated by the cuban government. A man who has killed over 9000 people worst then pinochet and Franco but he still supports him but hates Pinochet and Franco how ironic.

[Elrathin]

Ok, Democracy requires absolute freedom. Why is that so hard for you to understand?


Absolute freedom? Can you do whatever you want to here in the U.S.? Can you yell Fire when there isn't one. Can I take a dump on City Hall? Sorry, but we do not have ABSOLUTE freedom here in the U.S. Can I create and operate monopolies in the U.S. with Phone Companies? NO

[apdst]

Can you do whatever you want to here in the U.S.? Can you yell Fire when there isn't one. Can I take a dump on City Hall? Sorry, but we do not have ABSOLUTE freedom here in the U.S.

Murder is illegal, too. Should it not be? What about rape? Or child molestation? Absolute freedom as long as your actions don't endanger others. Of course there are going to be restrictions. I think most of those restrictions are reasonable.

[Truth Detector]

Ok, Democracy requires absolute freedom. Why is that so hard for you to understand?


Absolute freedom? Can you do whatever you want to here in the U.S.? Can you yell Fire when there isn't one. Can I take a dump on City Hall? Sorry, but we do not have ABSOLUTE freedom here in the U.S. Can I create and operate monopolies in the U.S. with Phone Companies? NO


My my my, more desperate rhetoric to support what; the notion that one doesn't need Democracy to have free markets? The notion that one can have free markets in a Communal society? Or was it that communist societies can have free markets? Or was his argument that we don't have a free market here because Socialism isn't accepted and it's the majority opinion?

If you cannot support your arguments, just reach for the absurd. Bravo Elrath, once again you fail to dissapoint.

I need a spreadsheet to keep up with the convoluted logic of some on this forum. [hr]
Can you do whatever you want to here in the U.S.? Can you yell Fire when there isn't one. Can I take a dump on City Hall? Sorry, but we do not have ABSOLUTE freedom here in the U.S.

Murder is illegal, too. Should it not be? What about rape? Or child molestation? Absolute freedom as long as your actions don't endanger others. Of course there are going to be restrictions. I think most of those restrictions are reasonable.


He knows Apdst, he is being absurd for the sake of absurdity. BUT, for the sake of being kindler and gentler, I am sure he had a valid point somewhere.

[apdst]

He knows Apdst, he is being absurd for the sake of absurdity.

You're wuite right, but that level of stupidity can't go unchallenged. It has to be confronted before it can be eradicated.

[Elrathin]

Absolute freedom as long as your actions don't endanger others.


And what is the endangerment from Gay Marriage? Oh yeah, nothing unless you try to pull a religious reason in which case that is all subjective.

There are plenty of things that don't endanger others that are still illegal.

In Colorado, all Liquor stores are closed on Sunday. Sorry that doesn't endanger people. All Car dealerships are also forced to be closed on Sunday, hardly an endangerment.

We do NOT have absolute freedom in the U.S. even if it doesn't endanger someone.[hr]
My my my, more desperate rhetoric to support what; the notion that one doesn't need Democracy to have free markets?


I commented to someone that said we need ABSOULTE freedom for Democracy. Well In the U.S. we have democracy, but we do not have ABSOLUTE FREEDOM. Try to keep up will you?

[crimzonsol]

Let me just check what this debate is about.
el comandante, you are argueing that having a free market economy is not a prerequisite for a government to be called a democracy?

TD and adpst, you are debating that you must have a free market economy in a country for that country to be democratic?

Am I right?

[Truth Detector]

Absolute freedom as long as your actions don't endanger others.


And what is the endangerment from Gay Marriage? Oh yeah, nothing unless you try to pull a religious reason in which case that is all subjective.

There are plenty of things that don't endanger others that are still illegal.

In Colorado, all Liquor stores are closed on Sunday. Sorry that doesn't endanger people. All Car dealerships are also forced to be closed on Sunday, hardly an endangerment.

We do NOT have absolute freedom in the U.S. even if it doesn't endanger someone.[hr]
My my my, more desperate rhetoric to support what; the notion that one doesn't need Democracy to have free markets?


I commented to someone that said we need ABSOULTE freedom for Democracy. Well In the U.S. we have democracy, but we do not have ABSOLUTE FREEDOM. Try to keep up will you?


The only absolute here is the absolute extreme you are attempting to take the discussion, off topic as well, in an effort to suggest that the absurd premise posted here about economics and Democracy had any merit, which was also off the thread topic.

You know what apdst meant by his comment, but absolutism and extremism seem to be the realm you feel most comfortable with.

I am sure you are making valid points, whatever that is, but it is way off topic. [hr]
Let me just check what this debate is about.
el comandante, you are argueing that having a free market economy is not a prerequisite for a government to be called a democracy?

TD and adpst, you are debating that you must have a free market economy in a country for that country to be democratic?

Am I right?


No crimonsol, I am saying that it is absurd to suggest that we don't have a true democracy because we won’t allow Socialist policy in this country and that is the will of the majority.

At least, I think that is what El Comandante was attempting to suggest but my spreadsheet ran out of room and so I can't be sure what he was trying to say anymore.

Basically, in order to have a Democracy with choice, a free market economy, or mixed one as is the case with ours, is a necessity. The alternative is the communal collectivist economy where a central authority determines what products and the allocation of labor is going to be produced.

We know this model is a failure and cannot compete with the free market model; at least those whom are educated about economics and have at least had econ 101.

[apdst]

Let me just check what this debate is about.
el comandante, you are argueing that having a free market economy is not a prerequisite for a government to be called a democracy?

TD and adpst, you are debating that you must have a free market economy in a country for that country to be democratic?

You got it, kid.

[crimzonsol]

No crimonsol, I am saying that it is absurd to suggest that we don't have a true democracy because we won’t allow Socialist policy in this country and that is the will of the majority.

At least, I think that is what El Comandante was attempting to suggest but my spreadsheet ran out of room and so I can't be sure what he was trying to say anymore.

Basically, in order to have a Democracy with choice, a free market economy, or mixed one as is the case with ours, is a necessity. The alternative is the communal collectivist economy where a central authority determines what products and the allocation of labor is going to be produced.

We know this model is a failure and cannot compete with the free market model; at least those whom are educated about economics and have at least had econ 101.


You got it, kid.

Ok makes sense now! :thumbsup:

[apdst]

So, are you in agrreement, either way? Or, do you think we ALL full-a-shit?...LOL!

[crimzonsol]

I have no idea right now, I am gonna say that if we were dealing with hypothetical
Socialism maybe we could have a democratic socialist country, but I dont ever see it being a reality. But I dont know if a free market nessicarily means a deomcracy. Hmm, Im gonna just stay out of this and see where it goes, cause I need to think more before I have an opinion I can support with facts.

[apdst]

But I dont know if a free market nessicarily means a deomcracy.

I would agree that a free market doesn't mean a Democracy, but at the same time a Democracy means a free market.

[crimzonsol]

That apdst, I can agree with.

[PatrickHenry]

But I dont know if a free market nessicarily means a deomcracy.

I would agree that a free market doesn't mean a Democracy, but at the same time a Democracy means a free market.

Is the US a "democracy?"

Is Denmark?