Another campus shooting--too close to home

[Buck Laser]

Northern Illinois University in DeKalb, IL where I lived for nearly 25 years, where my son graduated in 1985, and where my wife, daughter and I worked is the scene of another campus shooting that's sent at least 15 people to the hospital. I have too many friends there to feel very much at ease that all will turn out well there. When it's a place you know intimately, the impact seems ten times as heavy.[hr]
Why don't you just hope like the rest of us that the death toll isn't too severe instead of trying to politicize it immediately?

Sorry man, but I'm more a proactive person, than a reactive person.

"Sorry" doesn't cut it. You know fucking nothing about the campus or the town, so just keep your mouth to yourself until you know better what's happening.

[Labrocca]

This looks to be a big story in the coming days. Congrats Buck for the first post honor.

I won't say too much till more news comes in but it looks bad so far.

[BoogyMan]

The story claims the guy who did the shooting turned his gun on himself. I have never understood why these psychos feel the need to cause such suffering and misery on their way out.


Source: Link (http://cbs2chicago.com/local/nui.shooting.campus.2.654370.html)

Multiple Victims In N. Illinois Univ. Shooting
At Least 2 Reportedly Dead; Suspect Shot And Killed Himself

DE KALB, Ill (CBS) ― Several people have been shot on the Northern Illinois University campus. The suspect killed himself and officials say the danger has passed.

Officials confirmed that several people were shot at Cole Hall, a large lecture hall on campus, shortly after 3 p.m. and the campus was immediately placed on lockdown.

A spokeswoman for Kishwaukee Hospital reported that 17 people were being treated at the hospital. Three of those victims were critically injured, two with head wounds, one with a chest wound.

Another eight victims were in serious condition with various injuries. The other injuries were not considered life-threatening, she said. The most seriously injured patients would likely be transferred to other area hospitals.

Student journalists at the school's Northern Television Center reported that there were two fatalities, including the gunman.

Lt. Gary Spangler of the DeKalb Police Department told the school newspaper, the Northern Star, that "The gunman is deceased," adding that the "majority of the incident happened in Cole Hall."

Officials said the immediate danger has passed.

A viewer who e-mailed CBS 2 said that her brother was in the lecture hall where the shooting happened. "He says that the gunmen was a white male dressed in all black. He kicked the door in and opened fire. My brother dove under the desk, and popped his head up to see the gunmen was reloading. He grabbed his girlfriend's hand and ran to the library where they been in lockdown since."

Katie Wagner, a student who was inside the classroom, tells CBS 2 that there were 70 students inside room 101 at Cole Hall when the shooting happened. She said the gunman entered from a side door near the front of the lecture hall and started to fire shots.

She described the gunman as white, tall, skinny and wearing a black tee shirt - and maybe something red.

She said she went to the ground immediately and just started staring at the floor.

The campus will be closed on Friday.

"Police are trying to get everyone off campus,'' said student David Healy, who was near Cole Hall when the shooting happened. "At least five people have been pulled out on stretchers."

An alert on the university's website confirmed "several" people were taken away in ambulances.

The following hotlines are available for students & parents:

815-753-1573
815-753-6143
815-753-1574
815-753-1575
815-753-9564
815-753-6257

Counseling is also available on campus for students at all residence halls and at the Neptune Dining Hall, Campus Life Building 100 and the Psychological Services Center in the Psychology/Computer Science Building.

[Buck Laser]

Latest report direct from NIU is that the shooter committed suicide. I wish they had him alive in custody.

[BoogyMan]

Here is a link to the NIU Campus Alert page where they are posting public updates.

http://www.niu.edu/alert/campus_alert.shtml

[Buck Laser]

Here is a link to the NIU Campus Alert page where they are posting public updates.

http://www.niu.edu/alert/campus_alert.shtml

Thanks for posting that site, Boogy. It's one of my regular bookmarks, but I didn't hear about today's shooting until my son in law called me with the news. This is as shattering to me as that day back in 1966 when the shooter went up to the tower at the University of Texas and shot all those people. I don't know whether I'll be able to sleep tonight.

Incidentally, one of my wife's good friends was responsible for developing the emergency plan that NIU adopted after the VA Tech shootings. I surely hope her plan helped to reduce the toll. So far what I've learned is that the response was orderly and appropriate.

I just wish the shooter had been captured alive. We MUST know more about what goes on in the minds of people who do that, but it seems as if every single one of them kills himself.

[apdst]

I wish he would have been captured alive, too. That way, maybe, someone could have insured that he died a long, slow and painful death.

[Cobra]

5 dead so far, sad news, stupid senseless act.

[Labrocca]

From reports I hear he had a shotgun. Does anyone know what the campus policy is for guns? I know that some campuses are considering allowing teachers and other faculty to carry sidearms. If the teacher did have a firearm I think lives would have been saved.

Buck..I hope you didn't lose any friends in this obvious tragedy but that fact doesn't end debate here or elsewhere.

I wonder if shooter left an internet message. Seems to be another phenomenon lately to dig up everything you can about the culprit online. I bet we see his Myspace page by end of day. If anyone gets ahold of it please take screenshots as I am sure myspace will remove it very quickly.

[Cobra]

I thought he had a pistol and a shotgun, your not gona injure that many people with a 3 shot shotgun unless they couldn't get out/were packed together.

[apdst]

Does anyone know what the campus policy is for guns?

It was a gun free zone.

[Cobra]

It was a gun free zone.


Most schools are, you don't want 16 to 21 yo kids packing. It would take fist fights into shoot out territory.

[December]

This is why many foreign tourists don't want to vist US anymore....

[Buck Laser]

There's no information on what kind of gun he actually used. First reports mentioned something about a shotgun, but things like that tend to be confused.
The latest thing I saw on the NIU site was that the cops were on the site within 2 minutes. As I said earlier, my wife's good friend was responsible for developing the emergency plan. I don't know what it involved, but I do know that there was a panic button--or two or three--in the president's office, and had been for many years. I'd guess that they might have put similar buttons in classrooms.

I don't know if this has been in the news, but it was a big lecture hall he entered.

FWIW, my wife was executive secretary to the president of NIU for 15 years before she retired, Perhaps this will help explain why I am so devastated by this news, and take it so personally.

[Labrocca]

It was a gun free zone.


Most schools are, you don't want 16 to 21 yo kids packing. It would take fist fights into shoot out territory.


Gun-Free-Zone also applies to faculty and even campus security. Correct me if I am wrong.

I agree that I don't want 16 year olds packing but if an adult (over 18) is trained and licensed to carry I don't have a problem with it.

If you can imagine being in one of these situations you only have a couple chances of survival. One of them is that another person with a gun shoots the guy first. These are new times and these criminals are targetting inncocent people without the ability to protect themselves.

I would hate to think of my son or daughter hiding behind I desk praying for life and knowing the only person in the room with a gun is the shooter.

CNN reports the gunman had a shotgun and 2 firearms. So much for the gun free zone stopping these incidents. If anything they help them to occur. Shooters know they won't be stopped until their bullets are gone or the cops arrive. They have ample time to do a lot of damage which might be prevented had the teacher or another student carried a hidden weapon.

[Cobra]

Cops can still carry there guns in gun free zones. We had three cops at my old highschool armed and full time. Luck would still play a role, even with a gun I doubt I woul be able to react and shoot the gunman in such a situation unless I knew he was aiming right at me. More like freak, run, hide, hope I'm not noticed.

[Buck Laser]

CNN reports the gunman had a shotgun and 2 firearms. So much for the gun free zone stopping these incidents. If anything they help them to occur. Shooters know they won't be stopped until their bullets are gone or the cops arrive. They have ample time to do a lot of damage which might be prevented had the teacher or another student carried a hidden weapon.

I've spent too much time around universities and colleges to believe that arming professors could do any good at all. At NIU, it was crazy professors they worried about in the president's office, not students. I could cite several examples of professors causing major problems at NIU during my time there. On one occasion, when they were firing a professor with tenure, they had undercover cops in the room where the hearing was.

To my knowledge, NIU is not a "gun free zone." Campus cops have been armed for as long as I can remember. And the high schools my kids went to in the 70s and 80s had armed cops on site. I think the advocates for arming students and faculty have no real idea of what a powder keg that might make a large university like NIU. But then people want to carry guns in church, in hospitals, stores, and to bed with them, and I'm not gonna take all Those People on.

By the way, Labrocca, a shotgun is considered a firearm in any place I've ever been. Did you mean pistols?

[BoogyMan]

The CBS2 news article has now been updated. It appears that 4 young people have lost their lives in this sorry incident as well as the psycho who did the shooting.

http://cbs2chicago.com/local/nui.shooting.campus.2.654370.html

The guy was carrying a shotgun and two handguns.

[apdst]

If he would've had a rifle, with full metal jacket ammo, he could have scored more hits. Shot through walls, through people, more range, etc. Maybe that was a small blessing.

[lily]

I wonder if shooter left an internet message. Seems to be another phenomenon lately to dig up everything you can about the culprit online. I bet we see his Myspace page by end of day. If anyone gets ahold of it please take screenshots as I am sure myspace will remove it very quickly.


That seems to be the thing to do lately. Make a myspace page and think it's going to somehow imortalize you.

[Buck Laser]

If he would've had a rifle, with full metal jacket ammo, he could have scored more hits. Shot through walls, through people, more range, etc. Maybe that was a small blessing.

Why did you make this post, apdst, other than to state the obvious?[hr]
Does anyone know what the campus policy is for guns?

It was a gun free zone.

You'd better be able to provide a source for that. I spent years and years there, and I never heard anything about a "gun free" zone.

[apdst]

Why did you make this post, apdst, other than to state the obvious?

I have the priviledge to participate in this thread, just like anyone else.

You'd better be able to provide a source for that. I spent years and years there, and I never heard anything about a "gun free" zone.

Show me a college campus in The United States that ISN'T a gun free zone.

[Pookie]

Damn these whacko nutjobs! This is terrible. I heard this and we started praying -- our kids can't even be safe in schools! Buck, I left you a note under this topic in FP. I hope and pray your friends are okay.
This just makes me sick. Those poor families of the wounded and killed students...God, the pain they are feeling must be too much to bear.
Bless them all.
Sad purrs,
Pookie

[Buck Laser]

Why did you make this post, apdst, other than to state the obvious?

I have the priviledge to participate in this thread, just like anyone else.

You'd better be able to provide a source for that. I spent years and years there, and I never heard anything about a "gun free" zone.

Show me a college campus in The United States that ISN'T a gun free zone.

That's not gonna cut it, and you know it. I want you to document your statement. I don't believe you can. Of course I know you'd like everyone to "carry." Are you an undertaker?

[apdst]

That's not gonna cut it, and you know it. I want you to document your statement. I don't believe you can. Of course I know you'd like everyone to "carry." Are you an undertaker?

Document your statement. Prove that there were no firearms prohibitions on that campus. Good luck with that.

[Labrocca]

Interesting info about the Gun Free Zone law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act

I am sure there is more to the law than what's at the wiki but it's a general scope that I am sure is accurate. I am just a gun advocate and whenever I hear about these shootings I think if someone had a gun less deaths might occur.

One incident I remember is the murder of Dimebag Darrell.


On December 8, 2004, while performing with Damageplan at the Alrosa Villa in Columbus, Ohio, Dimebag Darrell Abbott was shot and killed onstage by former U.S. Marine Nathan Gale. Abbott was shot a total of five times, at point-blank range in the back of the head. He was 38 years old.

Three others were killed in the shooting: concert attendee Nathan Bray, 23 of Columbus; club employee Erin Halk, 29 of northwest Columbus; and Damageplan security guard Jeff "Mayhem" Thompson, 40 of Texas.

The band's drum technician, John "Kat" Brooks, and tour manager, Chris Paluska, were also injured.

According to police, Gale fired a total of fifteen shots, taking the time to reload once, remaining silent throughout the shooting. When security staff tried to stop him, Gale fired at them, wounding Paluska, and killing Halk, who had attempted to stop the gunman with a beer bottle as a weapon. Damageplan head of security Jeffery Thompson fought with Gale for a short time, stopping him from killing Vinnie Paul Abbott and John Graham, as well as knocking off Gale's glasses (preventing him from seeing Officer Niggemeyer just minutes later), before being fatally wounded by Gale. Audience member Nathan Bray, who jumped onstage to try to give CPR to Dimebag and Thompson, stood up and took a single step towards Gale before being shot a single time in the chest. Brooks was scuffling with Gale onstage but was overpowered and taken hostage in a headlock position. Brooks was shot several times (once in the right hand, his right leg, and his right side) while attempting to get the gun away from Gale. Five officers came in the front entrance led by officer Rick Crum, and moved toward the stage. Officer James D. Niggemeyer came in through the back door, behind the stage. Gale only saw the officers in front of the stage; he never saw officer Niggemeyer. When the hostage moved his head, Officer Niggemeyer shot Gale in the face with a police-issued 12-gauge shotgun. Gale was found to have 35 rounds of ammunition remaining.

Had security been given more than a beer bottle Halk might still be alive.

It's a serious discussion on a very serious matter. America didn't seem to have these occurances in schools before gun control laws were in effect. Shouldn't that make you wonder. I remember in high school knowing for fact at least one teacher had a gun in his desk.

[apdst]

whenever I hear about these shootings I think if someone had a gun less deaths might occur.

One doesn't have to be a gun advocate, he only has to use common sense. You never hear about these attacks in biker bars, police stations, or some place where the attacker knows his odds of success are lowered. Where do they ALWAYS happen? In a place where attackers knows that everyone is unarmed.

[Buck Laser]

It's a serious discussion on a very serious matter. America didn't seem to have these occurances in schools before gun control laws were in effect. Shouldn't that make you wonder. I remember in high school knowing for fact at least one teacher had a gun in his desk.

It may surprise you to learn this, Labrocca, but gun laws were a whole lot more restrictive than the are now for most of my lifetime. In the 1960s, it was illegal in TX to transport a handgun in your car without a permit. A majority of states had restrictions on who could buy guns and who could carry a concealed weapon. It's only been as gun restrictions have been slacked off so much in recent years that all this public violence has started becoming common.

It really pisses me off that you gun advocates would have the rest of us believe that anyone who wanted to could carry a gun back in the "good old days." In fact, I think it amounts to bald-faced lying. What's been happening in recent years is that cops and mayors and others who are alarmed at the rising violence rate have been talking about gun control, and the NRA and others have been shoveling money into the pockets of congressmen and state legislators to make sure more and more guns can flow onto the market. Do you think you can prove otherwise?

And just for the record, I own three rifles. I grew up hunting and target shooting, and would still like to if it were convenient. But I will not have a handgun in my house because I'm not willing to run the risk to my grandchildren, some of whom are here practically every day.

[lily]

One doesn't have to be a gun advocate, he only has to use common sense. You never hear about these attacks in biker bars,

Are you trying to tell me there are no gang fights with guns in biker bars??!!

police stations, or some place where the attacker knows his odds of success are lowered.

Yet we had a couple of pizza deliverymen not too long ago try to get into an army base......where everyone has at least one weapon.[hr]
This is why many foreign tourists don't want to vist US anymore....


I'm not too sure what the count is on tourists visiting college campuses......but I know there is a very large amount of foreign students on them, and a long waiting list to come to this country and go to school.,,,,,,,,,so your "point" is moot.

[apdst]

It's only been as gun restrictions have been slacked off so much in recent years that all this public violence has started becoming common.

Most of these are copy cat crimes. It's the in vogue thing for a nut job to do something like this.

Gun laws aren't going to stop anything. This dude could have bought a gauge and a gap from home slice on the corner, no matter what laws are in place.

Two hours after the Va. tech shootings, Illinois Senator Kotowski started pushing for tougher gun laws. What good did it do?

Are you trying to tell me there are no gang fights with guns in biker bars??!!

Not at all. What I'm saying, is that there aren't any of these kinds of nutjobs walking in hosing the place down.

Yet we had a couple of pizza deliverymen not too long ago try to get into an army base......where everyone has at least one weapon.

Two things: 1) did they kill anyone? 2) service members don't walk around armed on a military post. The weapons are locked in the arms vaults. Well, three things, 3) if a soldier DOES have a weapon, there's a high degree of probability that he doesn't have live ammo on his person. Possessing unauthorized ammunition, explosives, or pyrotechnics is a courts martial offense. It is in The Army, anyway.[hr]But I will not have a handgun in my house because I'm not willing to run the risk to my grandchildren, some of whom are here practically every day.

Your grand kids couldn't hurt themselves, or each other, with one of the rifles? I bet those rifles are locked up, so the kids can't get their hands on them. You can lock up the hand gun the same way.

[Buck Laser]

You're dancing around now, trying to avoid facing the consequences of the nonsensical remarks you made, apdst. You need to own what you said.

PS: I owned some handguns in some of my younger days, but I came to realize that I was unlikely ever to need to defend myself. When my wife was pregnant with our first kid in 1963, I got rid of my handguns.

This is my personal belief: handguns exist for the primary purpose of shooting people. Any other uses are very limited and unusual. I would as soon see all handguns strictly vetted both for character and competence before they're allowed to own or use a handgun. In fact I'd like to see this enforced for all kinds of firearms, but I think it would be hopeless for me to advocate that, so I don't press it.

To reiterate, in case anyone missed it: Gun ownership and use laws were MUCH more restrictive up until 1963. Strangely, following JFK's assassination, the laws have gotten more and more lax. Can anyone show otherwise?

[just a grunt]

Looks like NIU prohibits weapons on campus. Not really surprising, as most U's do.

3-1.5 DangerousWeapons:
1.5a Possession, use, sale, or distribution in anyresidence hall, building,
or grounds under university control of: fireworks, firearms, shotguns, rifles,
hand guns, switchblade knives, any type ofammunition, explosives, and
allother seriousweapons.
1.5b Misuse of martial arts weaponry, BB guns, pellet guns, clubs, knives,
and all other serious weapons.
Studentswho wish to bring firearms to the campus must obtain written
permission from the chief security officer of the university. Firearms must
be stored at the University Security Office except with written permission
ofthe chief security officer ofthe university. At no time will any of the
above dangerous weapons be allowed in the university residence halls.


http://www.stuaff.niu.edu/judicial/24430jo%28body%29.pdf

[Buck Laser]

Or I will continue to consider you--and call you--a liar.

Gee! There's a new one. A Liberal has never called me THAT before. You get points for originality.

Oh, neato, look what just a grunt posted! Did you see that, Buck?

Yep, stuff like that has been in most college regulations for at least 52 years, when I started in college. So what the fuck is new? How many places do you know of where "carrying" is tolerated? Maybe you could even name a few, and show how much everyone's safety is enhanced.

[apdst]

Gun ownership and use laws were MUCH more restrictive up until 1963.

Is that why The Gun Control Act of 1968 was passed? Because gun laws became less restrictive? Prior to the passage of GCA of 1968, it was legal for a felon to own a gun; it was legal for a minor ot purchase and carry a gun; it was legal--LEGAL mind you--to own an automatic weapon, without a license; until 1968, firearms weren't required by law to possess a serial number on the reciever; it was legal to buy guns via mail order catalogs, without a federal firearms license.

Less restrictive? I think not. But, hey, you're not a liar, you're just mistaken.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act)

[just a grunt]

You'd better be able to provide a source for that. I spent years and years there, and I never heard anything about a "gun free" zone.

Yep, stuff like that has been in most college regulations for at least 52 years, when I started in college. So what the f_ck is new?

Which is it Buck? That it never was gun free or it always was?

You may do well to throttle back on the emotion.

[apdst]

Yep, stuff like that has been in most college regulations for at least 52 years, when I started in college.

But, wait! You just said that gun prohibitions didn't exist at NIU.

You said it right here. Here's what you said:

"You'd better be able to provide a source for that. I spent years and years there, and I never heard anything about a "gun free" zone. "

Now, you are claiming that it's been a gun free zone for 52 years?[hr]You may do well to throttle back on the emotion.

I think it's time for a drink. I'm gonna have one, who wants to join me?

[Pookie]

I admit I'm emotional and feeling a little awful for the students and families, but also for our friend Buck. I feel terrible. Very sad, and frustrated. Although I'm the idiot in here who is a gun-toting, tree-hugging liberal, I get awfully angry when guns fall into the wrong hands.
I can only pray for everyone involved, and even though I wish desperately this won't happen again, I cringe at the thought that it will.
I am sorry I am angry. This is quite emotional for some of us. I'm going to join you in that drink, Apstd -- I'll have a glass of wine and pray some more.
God bless you, Buck.
Sad purrs,
Pookie

[cronic]

It's sad and tragic, Its getting to be never ending it seems like.. every time we turn around this is happening and at schools yet.. My sympathy goes out to you Buck as well as all the victims and there families and friends

[Buck Laser]

Gun ownership and use laws were MUCH more restrictive up until 1963.

Is that why The Gun Control Act of 1968 was passed? Because gun laws became less restrictive? Prior to the passage of GCA of 1968, it was legal for a felon to own a gun; it was legal for a minor ot purchase and carry a gun; it was legal--LEGAL mind you--to own an automatic weapon, without a license; until 1968, firearms weren't required by law to possess a serial number on the reciever; it was legal to buy guns via mail order catalogs, without a federal firearms license.

Less restrictive? I think not. But, hey, you're not a liar, you're just mistaken.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act)

Show me where it was legal to own an automatic weapon. I beleive they were pretty much outlawed in the 30s in response to the growing violence of the bootleggers.

The restrictive laws to which I was referring were almost all state laws that far pre-dated the federal laws. The NRA spends a whole lot of its effort on trying to kill state laws.

I am still utterly nonplussed as to why so many of you had rather worry about ways to hold onto your guns than worry about the great tragedy that occurred at NIU. It tells me something pretty distressing about people's values. Silly me--I always thought people were more important than guns.

[Pookie]

Wow, Cronic, bless you for that.
Purrs,
Pookie[hr]People are more important, Buck. Really, they are.
Purrs,
Pookie

[cronic]

I feel ya Buck.. and bless you to Pookie..There will be one more prayer tonight from me as well. I could debate everything else being debated here in this thread but I just elect not to because I think the intent of the thread itself wasn't supposed to go where it seems to have went!! All I know is every time this happens I feel almost lost as to why! God Bless Everyone!

[Pookie]

Oh wow, Cronic, you are so right! Your kindness is deeply, deeply appreciated. It does make you feel lost, and angry, and hurt, and all those emotions that come into play when our young ones, our brightest hopes, our precious children are threatened, and worse. It is so awful. Thank you, Cronic.
Sad purrs still,
Pookie

[MrHappy]

Here in AZ there's a bill pending (SB 1214 (http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/48leg/2r/summary/s.1214jud.doc.htm)) that:

1. Exempts, from misconduct involving weapons, a person who possesses a valid CCW permit and possesses a concealed firearm on school grounds.

2. Expands the definition of school to include a community college under the jurisdiction of a community college district, a university under the jurisdiction of the Arizona Board of Regents, a private college or a private university.
...

And as (AFAIK) all of the school shootings recently have taken place in gun free zones, I think it's a great idea. Might give a would-be shooter second thoughts about blasting fish in a barrel if they can shoot back. Fair is fair, right guys?

[Pookie]

Well, I see your point, but when bad things happen and you have a bunch of folks with guns, the odds are MORE innocent people can be hit. I honestly don't know what the answer to this situation is, but more guns would just make it all worse.
I'm still praying for them all, and for Buck.
Sad purrs,
Pookie

[MrHappy]

I honestly don't know what the answer to this situation is...

No one knows the answer, and I'm not sure if I even know the question. But more guns or more gun laws will do little, really. What we first need to determine is the common denominator in an unbiased manner.

[Pookie]

Perhaps the common denominator in all this is mental illness that is either overlooked or ignored. No mentally healthy person would do this kind of thing. Perhaps signs and symptoms are ignored or under-rated, until it is too late.
Purrs,
Pookie

[Lucky13]

What bothers me (besides the obvious) is that as these shootings continue, there is a good chance that people get desensitized to these horrific occurences. It seems that they are happening with a frighteningly degree of regularity.

We have a son and daughter on a college campus with a third one to follow shortly. My blood turns to ice and my stomach flops when I hear about these shootings. But to suggest that students be able to "arm themselves" is mind-boggling. Realistically, a certain percentage of students in college have been known to drink, experiment with drugs, are often sleep deprived and have developing impulse control. Adding guns to this mix is a recipe for disaster.

Perhaps the common denominator in all this is mental illness that is either overlooked or ignored. No mentally healthy person would do this kind of thing. Perhaps signs and symptoms are ignored or under-rated, until it is too late.
Purrs,
Pookie
One of the best responses in this thread.

Lots of anger out there folks. I work in an at risk elementary school. If you saw some of the anger that these young ones have, you would be shocked and concerned. Unfortunately, the hand writing is on the wall for some of these kids and short of a miracle, not too much is going to change the path they are on.

My heart goes out to these families.
pat

[Pookie]

Oh my, Pat. I didn't realize you had children on a college campus. And you are in the education system yourself. Bless your heart. I have heard that there was a lot of anger in children these days, and that is so sad. I don't know about you, but I'm 46 and when I was in school and growing up, we never saw this stuff. I became a cop, and was shocked and dismayed as a school resource officer. I had to patrol the halls of a high school! I often wondered wtf is happening to our kids, when I would catch them with knives and even one time, a gun.

What the hell? I thank God my daughter got through UNC-CH safely. And I don't have the answers for her when she calls with the hard questions. The death toll is up to seven now. Seven! My daughter was on the phone with me twice last night. She is the mother of my dear grandson. What is so bad is that we, as the big adults, the elders, the ones our children look up to, somehow failed to keep these trusting ones safe.

The only thing I can think of is back to the mental health issue. Surely something has to give somewhere. We can't have our campuses turning into war zones just because of one person's mental illness. Yet the mentally ill are protected by privacy issues. How is a college or a university supposed to provide a safe learning environment when they don't know they have a time bomb among the student body? It's like navigating a minefield -- hoping you don't take a wrong step.

I've gone on enough. God bless these children and their families. And I will be thinking of you, Pat, as well. This has been a long night for some of us.

Sad purrs,
Pookie

[davo]

I really hate seeing these shootings happen time and time again. It's tragic enough that a depressed person decides to take his/her own life, but what really gets me is why some people like this decide to kill others simply because they can.

I don't know terribly much about the history of gun laws in the United States, but I can't recall a time where it had been legal for students and staff to carry guns on a university campus (except for cops and security guards). I'm by no means anti-gun, but there should be a proper system of licenses for owning guns in the states. You need a license to drive a car, as you can easily kill someone with it (even though this is not its main purpose). Guns are specifically designed for killing people (or cute furry animals) yet in many cases you don't even need a license for one in the States. I'm also more concerned with handguns in particular rather than long guns, as these are easy to conceal, and they're used in the majority of crimes committed with firearms.

[Professor]

I know a lot of people who go to Northern. For me, last night was a desperate game of phone tag. I'm still waiting to hear from one more.

I'm with Buck, for me this hit way too close to home. It's easy to say it is "sad" when it's a bunch of kids you don't know hundreds of miles away, or "tragic" when it's some people of another religion in another state and it doesn't personally affect you. You see the headline, you're sad, but then you move on. When the bullets hit so close you don't move on so quickly.

[Cobra]

I don't get sad the headlines, only when it close to home, and besides close family no reason to dwell on something.

But anyway, bunch of crazy and angry people. Lots in high school, I'd hope they'd get better in college.

[Buck Laser]

I know a lot of people who go to Northern. For me, last night was a desperate game of phone tag. I'm still waiting to hear from one more.

I'm with Buck, for me this hit way too close to home. It's easy to say it is "sad" when it's a bunch of kids you don't know hundreds of miles away, or "tragic" when it's some people of another religion in another state and it doesn't personally affect you. You see the headline, you're sad, but then you move on. When the bullets hit so close you don't move on so quickly.

This morning I saw some clips from the NIU site, with pictures of NIU president John Peters, whom both my wife and I know personally. He looks 30 years older in that picture than when we last saw him.

But I've been pleased with what I've been reading about how the NIU administration responded quickly and appropriately to the emergency. The VA Tech tragedy woke a great many campuses up to the need to be ready for such senseless acts. Maybe this one will leave us with a sense that we CAN cope with absurd violence when it occurs without everyone shooting at everyone.

[Professor]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/15/university.shooting/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
Source IDs alleged gunman in Illinois campus shooting

DEKALB, Illinois (CNN) -- A law enforcement source familiar with the investigation into Thursday's shooting rampage at Northern Illinois University has identified the alleged gunman as Steven Kazmierczak.

The official declined to be named Friday citing the ongoing investigation.

Authorities have not publicly identified the gunman who opened fire on a geology class Thursday, shooting 21 people before turning the gun on himself. Six people were killed in addition to the shooter.

The DeKalb County coroner's office identified four of the victims, all Illinois residents: Daniel Parmenter, 20, of Westchester; Catalina Garcia, 20, of Cicero; Ryanne Mace, 19, of Carpentersville; and Julianna Gehant, 32, of Meriden.

University President John Peters said the gunman was a former graduate student who had a good record as an undergraduate, receiving a degree in sociology at the school in 2006.

A preliminary investigation has not uncovered a police record on the gunman, and records showed he had no contact with university police while a student there, Peters said.

"There's no indication that there was any trouble," Peters said.

The Chicago Tribune reported that the school honored the gunman two years ago for his research on the U.S. prison system, including a study of self-inflicted wounds among prisoners. He was a graduate student at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, the Tribune reported.

President Bush on Friday morning asked Americans "to offer their blessings -- blessings of comfort and blessings of strength" to the community at Northern Illinois University in DeKalb, about 65 miles west of downtown Chicago.

A spokesman for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives said that some of its agents were on the scene to help police in the investigation. ATF agents could help trace the weapons used.

An FBI spokesman said bureau agents would assist as well.

All classes and events on the university campus were canceled until further notice. Dormitories remained open to house and feed students.

"I know what's happened, but I don't want to believe it," said Stefanie Miller, who saw two of her friends die in the Cole Hall shooting.

Miller said the gunman came out from behind a curtain and opened fire, sending people screaming, running, and in many cases falling to the ground. It was like "a scene from a movie," she said.

The man used a shotgun and at least one handgun, witnesses said.

"A lot of people were screaming. Everybody started running for the door," said student Zach Seward. "It was just complete chaos."

Four died at the scene, including the shooter, and three later died at a hospital, officials said.

Police Chief Donald Grady said authorities do not yet know of a motive.

Late Thursday, dozens of students gathered on campus for a candlelight prayer vigil. Video footage showed students comforting one another and a young man playing guitar.

Seven counseling areas were set up, and hotlines were established.

Senior Daley Hamilton, 21, said most students were heading home to their parents. "My parking lot at my apartment is pretty sparse," she said.

She said she and her roommate were planning to leave Friday. "We are really on edge and just kind of want to get out," she said.

Tributes also were surfacing online. A Facebook community called "Pray for Northern Illinois University Students and Families" had more than 34,000 members by Friday morning.

Gunman 'just started shooting'

About 160 students were registered in the class that met in the large lecture hall.

Kevin McEnery said he was in the classroom when the gunman, dressed in a black shirt, dark pants and black hat, burst in carrying a shotgun.

"He just kicked the door open, just started shooting," McEnery said. "All I really heard was just people screaming, yelling 'get out.' ... Close to 30 shots were fired."

At 3:03 p.m. CT, university police responded, and four minutes later, the campus was ordered into "a lockdown situation," said Grady, the police chief.

At 3:20, an all-campus alert went out via the school Web site, e-mail, voice mail, the campus crisis hotline, the news media and alarm systems, he said.

"The message basically was: There's a gunman on campus, stay where you are; make yourself as safe as possible," he said.

Student Rosie Moroni said she was outside Cole Hall near the King Commons when she heard shots coming from the classroom.

The shots were followed by "a lot of people screaming," then people ran out the doors yelling, "He's got a gun, call 911," she recalled.

By 4 p.m., DeKalb police had swept the area "and determined there was only one gunman" and that he was dead.

Grady said the man used three guns: a shotgun, a Glock handgun and a small-caliber handgun, and was still on the stage when he turned one of the guns on himself. The small-caliber handgun had not yet been recovered, Grady said.

Security around campus was increased in December when police found threats scrawled on a campus bathroom wall that included racial slurs and references to last April's Virginia Tech shootings. Learn about other recent school shootings »

Peters said no evidence points to a link between the December incident and Thursday's shooting.

The university revised its emergency procedures after the Virginia Tech massacre, Peters said.

"I believe that paid off," he said. "That's really a sad thing to say, that you have to learn from an event like that, but we knew how we wanted to communicate and we sort of had some messages prearranged, and we got out there fairly quickly."

He said the shooting could force further changes.

"Universities for decades, for hundreds of years, have been open institutions -- the most open institutions," he said. "And events like this and Virginia Tech and others are forcing us to reconsider how we do things. I think that is unfortunate but necessary."

Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich declared a state of emergency, which will allow state agencies to assist local authorities.

Eighteen victims were taken to Kishwaukee Community Hospital in DeKalb, the hospital Web site said.

Of those, seven were in critical condition and were flown to other hospitals. One fatality, a male, was confirmed -- but was not the gunman, the hospital said. Two were admitted, and eight others were discharged.

Nate Llewellyn, a spokesman for Advocate Good Samaritan Hospital in Downers Grove, said it had received two female patients and one male: Nineteen-year-old Unnum Rahman was in serious condition after receiving gunshot wounds to her right eye and arm; Maria Ruiz Santana was in critical condition; and an unidentified male was in critical condition. All three required surgery, he said.

The 113-year-old school has an enrollment of more than 25,000. The campus covers 755 acres.

[Buck Laser]

Thanks for posting that, Professor.

PS: There might be some good information on Daily Kos, since the creator, Mark Moulitsas, is a graduate of Northern Illinois University, and probably has some remaining close ties.

[brien]

This is why many foreign tourists don't want to vist US anymore....


Whenever we get these types of incidents, there is a never ending amount of emotional extrapolations. In fact, tourism is up over previous years despite campus shootings.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/06/BUJGU8QP6.DTL



Foreign visitors descend on S.F. for bargains
Sam Zuckerman, Chronicle Staff Writer

Sunday, January 6, 2008
The precipitous fall of the dollar - a decline that picked up steam in 2007 - has turned the United States into a giant bargain basement for much of the world, especially visitors carrying strong European, Canadian and Australian currencies. And they are coming - in droves.

The United States "is the holiday everyone chooses now because of the exchange rate," Mary Owles said.

San Francisco and surrounding areas such as Napa Valley and the Monterey Peninsula are prime beneficiaries. Walk through Fishermen's Wharf or Union Square and it sounds like the Berlitz Academy.



After falling for years, the greenback went into something of a tailspin in 2007. It fell 7 percent against the Japanese yen and 10 percent versus the euro, the currency of 13 European Union countries. It dropped to parity with the Canadian dollar, known as the loonie, and to half the value of the British pound, much to the dismay of American visitors to London.

As a result, record numbers of international tourists are coming to the Bay Area. Despite it great distance from Europe, San Francisco International Airport was the sixth-most-popular arrival point in the United States during the first nine months of 2007. Just over 1 million foreign visitors flew into San Francisco, up 9 percent from the comparable period in 2006, close to the 10 percent increase registered for the United States as a whole, according to the Commerce Department's Office of Travel and Tourism Industries. [hr]
Does anyone know what the campus policy is for guns?

It was a gun free zone.


Apparently it wasn't a "gun free zone".

[apdst]

Show me where it was legal to own an automatic weapon. I beleive they were pretty much outlawed in the 30s in response to the growing violence of the bootleggers.

Technically, automatic weapons were enver outlawed. The only thing that changed, was that a person had to have a license to own one. I have two and I'm half owner of a third.

Brein,

You should really read the whole thread.

[jose]

NIU gunman stopped taking medication
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/niu_shooting;_ylt=Ah._JKRtKoRNojwtW4H6jW.s0NUE
DEKALB, Ill. - The man who gunned down five people at Northern Illinois University in a suicidal rampage became erratic after halting his medication and carried a shotgun to campus inside a guitar case, police said Friday.


The man, 27-year-old former student Stephen Kazmierczak, was also wielding three handguns during Thursday's ambush inside a lecture hall.

Two of the weapons — the pump-action Remington shotgun and a Glock 9mm handgun — were purchased legally less than a week ago, on Feb. 9, authorities said. They were purchased in Champaign, where Kazmierczak was enrolled at the University of Illinois.
I wonder if the medication played a part in this tragedy

[brien]

Brein,

You should really read the whole thread.


I have, and it is a very sad one, indeed. A company I do business with employs a woman who is related to Danny Parmenter. Her younger sister is married to Mark Parmenter, Danny's unlce..

Below is part of an email I received today..:sadly:

Mark has a brother, Gary, who has 2 children, one son, one daughter. Gary lives in Elgin IL. His son Danny was a Junior at NIU. His son Danny is now dead, shot in the head in a senseless mass killing.at NIU. Sandy and Mark and Danny's cousins are devastated . [hr]Show me where it was legal to own an automatic weapon. I beleive they were pretty much outlawed in the 30s in response to the growing violence of the bootleggers.


Here is a history of the Thompson Sub Machine gun referred to above. The Thompson was never dilberately sold to the general public but unscrupulous dealers did manage to sell them to gangsters.

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/PSharpe1.html


Every effort has been made to make the Thompson gun available only to properly constituted authorities. In past years sales were handled through many large sporting goods dealers; the burden of determining the integrity of a purchaser thus falling on the dealer's shoulders. Experience has taught the makers of this weapon that such a policy is greatly abused, corrupt employees making sales to emmisaries of gangdom and falsifying records to make the transaction appear "regular." A new policy now in force will eliminate these troubles.

Police Departments, sheriffs and District Attorneys' forces, penitentiaries, prisons and jails, responsible banks, and bonded armored truck despatch services may purchase the various models and equipment. However, sales are no longer made through jobbers, dealers, or agents. The Auto-Ordnance Corporation has made the Federal Laboratories of Pittsburgh, Pa., its exclusive distributor. This Corporation sells direct to the above mentioned agencies only after proper investigation of the buyer. Purchases are made on officially signed orders from chiefs of police, mayors, city purchasing agents, or officials occupying such capacities in their localities. Papers must be signed, certifying that neither the weapon nor any of its accessories may become the property of an individual.

This new arrangement prohibits a sheriff from purchasing a sub-machine gun and taking it with him when he retires from office. For the gun is sold to the department only. This also applies to any other purchasing organization.
No private individual may purchase a Thompson gun. There are no exceptions.

In other words, the Auto-Ordnance Corporation has carefully regulated the sale of its products, assisting law enforcement agen- [Page 1114] cies in two ways-giving them a gun which will promptly settle an argument with a law-breaker; and preventing these portable machine guns from falling into improper hands.

[Lucky13]

I know it sounds trite, but there is no easy answer for what happened. I think we all desperately want to find a reason for the obvious increase in school shootings because we want a "quick fix".
Some will say it was mental illness, others will blame medications and still others will say that it is just a matter of evil. Mothers and fathers will be blamed, the schools hold accountable and the big umbrella of "society gone wrong" will be discussed. Video games and lyrics in music will come under scrutiny and even the food we are eating will be suspect in a tragedy that we just "don't get".

There is no one answer but this I know. We have some very, very angry kids out there and they are angry for a very good reason. Do you know how many kids (remember, I am in an elementary school) that I work with that have been sexually molested? Care to take a guess as to how many have been physically abused, are drug mules for their parents, are dirty and hungry and often are raising themselves?

I could go on and on with stories that you probabl would think I am making up. I wish I was.

I don't know why this young man did what he did. I suspect that medication played a role in what he did, but I don't know.
I do know that parents send their kids to school thinking that for the most part that they are going to be safe. The stark reality is that our society IS becoming more violent whether it is school shootings, spousal murders or missing people.

Finally, to think that giving teachers or students guns is going to have a positive impact on this situation is mind boggling.

Thoughts to all of you that are much closer to this than some of us.
Be kind to yourselves.

I'm just fresh outta magic wands and crystal balls.
pat

[sam]

It's been 30 years since I left college and I can guarantee that if my university was typical of most; you DO NOT want 18-21 year olds armed. There was, and still is, a lot of drinking and drugs and kids who still need a lot of growing up to do to beleive arming them would be a wise choice.

In a perfect world, everyone would remain calm and one individual would stand up and take out the shooter. The truth is, gun shots elicit terror and panic. You see someone pointing a gun at someone else (the actual shooter) and you believe the second individual is the shooter and shoot him........I'm with Pookie 100% on this.

Guns do not belong in schools. I'm so sorry Buck for what you and you're family must be going through. I was just a kid when the Kent State shootings occurred,
(Two of my older cousins were attending when it occurred) but I still remember
the panic and shock that rocked Cleveland.

[lily]

The only thing I can think of is back to the mental health issue. Surely something has to give somewhere. We can't have our campuses turning into war zones just because of one person's mental illness. Yet the mentally ill are protected by privacy issues. How is a college or a university supposed to provide a safe learning environment when they don't know they have a time bomb among the student body? It's like navigating a minefield -- hoping you don't take a wrong step.

Well, it appears that's what it was, he went off his medication. It's a fine line Pookie. Do we want or even expect doctors to tell schools that their patients are on medication? I know I wouldn't. Should people not be allowed to buy guns if they are taking certain medications for serious mental health problems.....have to say no, since if they take their medication, they are fine. It's when they go off they have problems like this.......and no one expects them to go off their medication......the next step would be forced medication. There's been talk of it.......and that's a line I don't want to cross.....so what's the answer?

[preservanation]

Ah, lily,
this would predicate that all your medical info be made available to the local retailers...thus to the public.
Hard to argue that line.
If we want our med records broadcast over the Internet like our arrest records, so be it...but some think that one is more protected than the other.

[lily]

..........but that's not what I was arguing. In fact, just the opposite.

[preservanation]

Picky...

[Buck Laser]

The only thing I can think of is back to the mental health issue. Surely something has to give somewhere. We can't have our campuses turning into war zones just because of one person's mental illness. Yet the mentally ill are protected by privacy issues. How is a college or a university supposed to provide a safe learning environment when they don't know they have a time bomb among the student body? It's like navigating a minefield -- hoping you don't take a wrong step.

Well, it appears that's what it was, he went off his medication. It's a fine line Pookie. Do we want or even expect doctors to tell schools that their patients are on medication? I know I wouldn't. Should people not be allowed to buy guns if they are taking certain medications for serious mental health problems.....have to say no, since if they take their medication, they are fine. It's when they go off they have problems like this.......and no one expects them to go off their medication......the next step would be forced medication. There's been talk of it.......and that's a line I don't want to cross.....so what's the answer?

I think that at least part of this problem traces back to the Reagan era, when it became evident that a great many people who were in mental hospitals didn't really need to be there. Further, it became evident that people's civil rights were being trampled by forcing them to take drugs against their will.

The Reagan administration used the issue as an excuse to close most of the hospitals and dump the patients, giving rise to our homeless crisis. Then he said, "well a lot of people just choose to be homeless."

But here is where civil rights and liberties come in conflict with the common good. What do you do about a person who can function perfectly well so long as he takes his meds, but becomes a danger to everyone if he doesn't, even for reasons beyond his control? I'd give anything to be smart enough to figure out an answer to that one--an answer that respected everyone's rights. I'd even be willing to bet that if we could solve that one, we could quit worrying about the massacres that happened at NIU and VA Tech.

[lily]

I think that at least part of this problem traces back to the Reagan era, when it became evident that a great many people who were in mental hospitals didn't really need to be there. Further, it became evident that people's civil rights were being trampled by forcing them to take drugs against their will.

Yes, I know all too well the horrors of Reagan's decision.........but I also know first hand some of the good it did.

I was debating whether to go personal with the above statement......but decided to leave it at that.

The Reagan administration used the issue as an excuse to close most of the hospitals and dump the patients, giving rise to our homeless crisis. Then he said, "well a lot of people just choose to be homeless."

Not all went homeless, a great majority of them were either given bus tickets to different states, so that state wouldn't have the responsbility of taking care of them..........thus leaving them homeless further away from a support system of family and friends.......and then some of them just get put in jail or prison.

But here is where civil rights and liberties come in conflict with the common good. What do you do about a person who can function perfectly well so long as he takes his meds, but becomes a danger to everyone if he doesn't, even for reasons beyond his control? I'd give anything to be smart enough to figure out an answer to that one--an answer that respected everyone's rights. I'd even be willing to bet that if we could solve that one, we could quit worrying about the massacres that happened at NIU and VA Tech.

There has been talk.......and I'm too lazy tonight to cite, so I think you know me enough to take my word, that there has been talk in some places of forcing a person to take their medication........something I'm totally against. I know it's going to sound callous, but one or two incidents like this doesn't compell me to think it's worth taking away someone's civil liberties for.

There have also been court cases, where the lawyer decides if the patient should or should not take their medications, so they appear either sane/or insane at the time of trial, depending on how they want their client to appear.

[Lucky13]

Whoa....the stories I have read have said he went off medication but does not mention WHAT medication. You can have some wierd side effects from suddenly stopping many different kinds of medication.

A lot of people that take mild anti-depressants (3/4 of the country, it seems) are warned not to suddenly stop taking the medication, but instead to "wean" themselves off of it gradually.

Isn't there a possibility that ceasing to take the medication suddenly might have had an adverse effect rather than whatever the illness he was being treated for?

Does that make sense?

I have seen behaviours of a lot of kids that "ping" off of medication frequently. They take it for a month...stop taking it for a couple months and then resume. The behaviour is aggressive, angry and unpredictable. It's almost always worse behavior than before they took the medication.

Something is just really off in this story. By all accounts, this guy does not seem to fit the profile of a loner that gave off some warning signs.

The debate on whether one can be forced to take medication is an interesting one.
How far does that extend? Prenatal vitamins?
Medication for chronic illnesses? Or would it just be medication that could turn a person violent if they stopped taking it? What criteria would be used to define violent behavior and what mental illnesses would come under that umbrella.

When do you sacrifice the rights of the few for the good of many?
Ever?
pat

[just a grunt]

But here is where civil rights and liberties come in conflict with the common good. What do you do about a person who can function perfectly well so long as he takes his meds, but becomes a danger to everyone if he doesn't, even for reasons beyond his control? I'd give anything to be smart enough to figure out an answer to that one--an answer that respected everyone's rights. I'd even be willing to bet that if we could solve that one, we could quit worrying about the massacres that happened at NIU and VA Tech.


There is law that exists - in the event of foreseeable danger to the patient of community - to commit the patient for a period of time. Like other laws we have, it is not used as often as possibly it should be. It was well publicized that the VT killer may have fallen into that classification.

As to "forcing" a patient to take meds, we cannot allow that. If we are truly respectful of individual rights, we (as a society) must fight that.

[jose]

It comes as no surprise to anyone who's been following school shootings all the way back to the Colombine High massacre in Colorado: Every young, male shooter that has gone on a killing spree in the United States also has a history of treatment with psychotropic drugs -- typically SSRI antidepressants. These shootings have three things in common: 1) The shooters are young males. 2) The shooters exhibit a mind-numbed disconnect with reality. 3) The shooters have a history of taking psychiatric medications.
http://www.naturalnews.com/022656.html
more info on prozac type drugs
http://www.drugawareness.org/home.html

[Osborn F. Enready]

Jose, don't bring up the facts.... a lot of people want to blame guns, and facts only cloud the issue. ;)

[Cobra]

Yeah you shouldn't force people to take their meds. I take an anti-anxiety, Zoloft I think. That doesn't mean I shouldn’t be able to buy a gun or I'm gona shoot up some school even if I suddenly went off it, done that before.

[Buck Laser]

But here is where civil rights and liberties come in conflict with the common good. What do you do about a person who can function perfectly well so long as he takes his meds, but becomes a danger to everyone if he doesn't, even for reasons beyond his control? I'd give anything to be smart enough to figure out an answer to that one--an answer that respected everyone's rights. I'd even be willing to bet that if we could solve that one, we could quit worrying about the massacres that happened at NIU and VA Tech.


There is law that exists - in the event of foreseeable danger to the patient of community - to commit the patient for a period of time. Like other laws we have, it is not used as often as possibly it should be. It was well publicized that the VT killer may have fallen into that classification.

As to "forcing" a patient to take meds, we cannot allow that. If we are truly respectful of individual rights, we (as a society) must fight that.

One of the problems with that law (which is probably a state law, anyway) is that there are now so few mental hospitals available that most of them are overloaded. It's just been announced in Austin that people with mental crises will be taken to local emergency rooms, not mental institutions, because they have no more room.

[jose]

Yeah you shouldn't force people to take their meds. I take an anti-anxiety, Zoloft I think. That doesn't mean I shouldn’t be able to buy a gun or I'm gona shoot up some school even if I suddenly went off it, done that before.

how do you feel about taking a drug that takes away your control of ¨you¨ such as
Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors
I have to ask, are mind altering drugs the norm for people in America?

[apdst]

there has been talk in some places of forcing a person to take their medication........something I'm totally against. I know it's going to sound callous, but one or two incidents like this doesn't compell me to think it's worth taking away someone's civil liberties for.

That's exactly what needs to happen, along with notification of mental illness and possibly confinement.

Steven Kazmierczak's rights do not outway the rights of thousands of other people who were and will be effected by his actions. The rights of the eighteen people he shot and the hundreds of others he endagered are much more important than his.

[sam]

Yeah you shouldn't force people to take their meds. I take an anti-anxiety, Zoloft I think. That doesn't mean I shouldn’t be able to buy a gun or I'm gona shoot up some school even if I suddenly went off it, done that before.

how do you feel about taking a drug that takes away your control of ¨you¨ such as
Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors
I have to ask, are mind altering drugs the norm for people in America?


Please post a link to backup your statement that zoloft is a narcotic and induces 'mind alterining' behavior in as much the same way as
heroin or acid or other meds classified as 'narcotics' (and zoloft isnt one of them). I have not seen anything from the AMA or APA indicating your assertion except that SSRI's should not be administered to children (as well as countless other medication, including aspirin).

[lily]

That's exactly what needs to happen, along with notification of mental illness and possibly confinement.

Steven Kazmierczak's rights do not outway the rights of thousands of other people who were and will be effected by his actions. The rights of the eighteen people he shot and the hundreds of others he endagered are much more important than his.


The only problem with this arguemnt is you're not just forcing one person to give up his civil liberties......you're forcing an entire nation.

What comes next forced sterilization, manditory birth control, one child per family?

[apdst]

The only problem with this arguemnt is you're not just forcing one person to give up his civil liberties......you're forcing an entire nation.

How ya figger?

Seems to me, that you wanna let nutjobs run around, unchecked, to kill whom they please and to solve the problem, you want to deprive even MORE Americans of their second amendment rights.

So, at the end of the day, this wack-job's rights were preserved, and in the process the rights of hundreds of others were denied them.

Whose rights are preserved by your plan? The majority? Or, the minority?

[Elrathin]

Seems to me, that you wanna let nutjobs run around, unchecked, to kill whom they please and to solve the problem, you want to deprive even MORE Americans of their second amendment rights.


The problem is who do you have making decisions as to whom is a "nutjob" and who isn't. Keep in mind there are many many veterans with PTSD that could be considered nutjobs by the wrong people.

Who do you trust to make that decision?

[Shintao]

Yeah you shouldn't force people to take their meds. I take an anti-anxiety, Zoloft I think. That doesn't mean I shouldn’t be able to buy a gun or I'm gona shoot up some school even if I suddenly went off it, done that before.

how do you feel about taking a drug that takes away your control of ¨you¨ such as
Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors
I have to ask, are mind altering drugs the norm for people in America?



Yeah, of course. Most Americans are on viagra or some other sex drug. We are all floating in America. They start out with giving the kids tranqualizers an work their way up the ladder. Lots of designer drugs.

[jose]

Yeah you shouldn't force people to take their meds. I take an anti-anxiety, Zoloft I think. That doesn't mean I shouldn’t be able to buy a gun or I'm gona shoot up some school even if I suddenly went off it, done that before.

how do you feel about taking a drug that takes away your control of ¨you¨ such as
Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors
I have to ask, are mind altering drugs the norm for people in America?


Please post a link to backup your statement that zoloft is a narcotic and induces 'mind alterining' behavior in as much the same way as
heroin or acid or other meds classified as 'narcotics' (and zoloft isnt one of them). I have not seen anything from the AMA or APA indicating your assertion except that SSRI's should not be administered to children (as well as countless other medication, including aspirin).

No i never made a statement that zoloft is a Narcotic, its not, niether is Acid, as the´re not dirived from opium.
Zoloft, obviously alters the function of your mind, thats what it´s sold for
I have already posted a link for information on Prozac type drugs

[PostmodernProphet]

so a friend of my daughter was over last night, and his roommate had just gotten back from visiting his cousin in Illinois......she lived in an apartment and a few weeks ago the neighbor upstairs was making a lot of noise and her daughter couldn't sleep so she went up and complained.....he was pretty nice about it and apologized......last week it happened again, at 3 am it sounded like someone was dropping the furniture against the floor....she went and knocked on his door.....the noise stopped but he wouldn't come to the door.....

later that day her apartment complex was swarming with police.....the reason?.....the guy upstairs had walked into a college lecture hall and opened fire on everyone......
__________________

[lily]

Wow! This seems to be hitting a lot of people close.

[apdst]

Who do you trust to make that decision?

Certianly not the psychiatric community. We see how well they've been doing.

[Buck Laser]

Who do you trust to make that decision?

Certianly not the psychiatric community. We see how well they've been doing.

You're not making any sense at all, you know.

[apdst]

You're not making any sense at all, you know.

If you have something to add, let's hear it; otherwise save the personal attacks for another time.

[moses2792796]

Does anyone think that there might be deeper issues that no one is looking into here? Why is it that this is now an annual occurence in America while 50 years ago it was unheard of? Why are people behaving like this, what has changed? I don't buy into the 'bullied at school' argument, most of these kids seemed to be intelligent but confused and without a direction, they seemed to think that society had failed but couldn't articulate their ideas, so they chose to lash out violently. People need to stop reacting emotionally and start thinking logically about the causes of these events.

[apdst]

Why is it that this is now an annual occurence in America while 50 years ago it was unheard of? Why are people behaving like this, what has changed?

I believe it's because no one thought about doing it, until someone did it.

[Buck Laser]

You're not making any sense at all, you know.

If you have something to add, let's hear it; otherwise save the personal attacks for another time.

A statement of fact is NOT a personal attack.

[apdst]

A statement of fact is NOT a personal attack.

You stated you opinion, sir. Not a fact.

[moses2792796]

Why is it that this is now an annual occurence in America while 50 years ago it was unheard of? Why are people behaving like this, what has changed?

I believe it's because no one thought about doing it, until someone did it.


The idea of waging war on society is not new, seen Taxi Driver? There has been a shift in the mentality of intelligent young people, what could have caused this? I won't answer myself because people need to think about this question in detail.

[truthistreason]

I think we do need to do something involving drugs and mental health. It seems that all of these shooters were mentally unstable people with a history of mental health problems.

Gun control is not the answer. In fact, I believe that people who have undergone the necessary background checks to purchase a handgun and have passed through more background checks and legal training in order to be able to obtain a concealed carry permit should be allowed to carry them on college campuses. In the meantime, anybody can ILLEGALLY carry a gun on a college campus without being caught (it's not like metal detectors and security guards out the wazoo for a college campus of several hundred acres is a practical solution) and open fire on law abiding unsuspecting students, who, in complying with the rules of the university, are not carrying any concealed firearms whether they have a permit or not. And for those who don't want 18-21 year olds carrying handguns, please note that the legal age to purchase a handgun is 21 as a federal law, and also the instant background check and other systems in place.

But we really need to be on the lookout for people with mental health issues and get them help before something like this happens. And I'm not sure that a state law mandating that mentally unstable people should be regularly checked on by their doctor to make sure that they are taking their medications. This won't force them to take their meds, but the doc would check say, once a week, to make sure they are, and if they aren't, then the institutions that this individual deals with (insofar as school, work, whatever) would have to be informed and be able to take proper precautions. So this wouldn't violate the privacy of all people, but it would only violate the privacy of the mentally ill people most at risk to themselves and others as needed. After all, any severely ill patient not taking their medication is a huge risk.

[jose]

Girlfriend: NIU killer took sleep, anti-anxiety drugs
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/805731,CST-NWS-invest21.article
snip
¨The gunman who killed five students at Northern Illinois University last week was not only taking anti-depressants, he also was taking an anti-anxiety medication and a sleep aid, his girlfriend said.

Jessica Baty said her boyfriend, Steven Kazmierczak, was taking Xanax, Ambien and Prozac.¨