1/24 Marines given the boot by Toledo mayor

[apdst]

Why such a hard on for The Corps? I'm sure it's the military in general. It just happens to be the Marines in the two instances of late

Mayor kicks Marines out of Toledo
1-24th Marines were scheduled for weekend urban warfare training in downtown Toledo, when Carty gave them the boot

By Darsha Philips
Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2008 at 2:05 p.m.

TOLEDO, OH -- Mayor Carty Finkbeiner on Friday ordered some 200 members of Company A, 1st Battalion, 24th Marines from Grand Rapids, Michigan, out of Toledo just before the unit was suppose to start a weekend of urban warfare training downtown.

The mayor’s spokesperson Brian Schwartz said, “the mayor asked them to leave because they frighten people. He did not want them practicing and drilling in a highly visible area."

Toledo police said they knew about the training and had approved the unit’s use of the Madison Building and the Promenade Park area. The training was scheduled to start Friday afternoon and last until Sunday. Police said the unit’s presence would have a minimal impact on the city. Police issued a press release earlier in the week saying the marines would be wearing green camouflage uniforms, operate military vehicles, carry rifles, perform foot patrols, and fire blank ammunitiion during the exercise.

Schwartz said there was a breakdown in communication between police and the Finkbeiner administration that led to the mayor’s action.

“The marines drilled here three times during the Ford administration and once under the Finkbeiner administration. After the last visit, the mayor told then police chief Jack Smith, that he did not want the marines back. Smith failed to inform the current police administration of the mayor’s feelings,” Schwartz said.

NBC24 spoke to Jack Smith who recalled that after the marines last visit, he and the mayor had a heated exchange about the training.

“He told me he did not want them, as he put it, 'playing war in Toledo,'" Smith recalled. "I told him, as a former marine, that if one young marine’s life is saved because of training he or she received in Toledo, Ohio, then it was worth the inconvenience.”

Smith said if the mayor objected, then he should have been the one to convey those feelings to police. Smith took his run-in with the mayor as an objection to that last visit, and not future training in Toledo.

As a result, the Toledo police went ahead, granting approval to the 1-24th Marines to conduct the routine exercise. The police notified members of the Finkbeiner administration, who were not aware that the mayor objected to unit’s training in Toledo.

When the mayor found out, he sent a member of his staff to tell marines they could not conduct urban operations in Toledo.

The unit was notified about 3:30 p.m. after an advance team arrived in Toledo. Five buses carrying some 200 marines traveled four hours from Grand Rapids, only to find out the training had been shot down.

The unit briefly stopped at a another 1-24th marine base in Perrysburg Township, then returned back to Grand Rapids where training was expected to be held this weekend.

A spokesperson for the marines said they were disappointed by the mayor’s decision especially after the city had been so helpful in the past.

[PatrickHenry]

Why would any resposible mayor allow a military training operation in his downtown area?

The military could easily spend a few bucks to simulate it and the citizens of Toledo don't have to move over for a mission that has nothing to do with their interests.

The Marines are an instrument of a despicable militarist foreign policy by the US.

A policy that invades, maims, kills and even occupies people who are no threat to the USA.

Not a defense force, but an aggression force. There is a mountain of difference.

[Trish]

I noticed the mayor didn't have the balls to tell the Marines himself.[hr]
Why would any resposible mayor allow a military training operation in his downtown area?

The military could easily spend a few bucks to simulate it and the citizens of Toledo don't have to move over for a mission that has nothing to do with their interests.

The Marines are an instrument of a despicable militarist foreign policy by the US.

A policy that invades, maims, kills and even occupies people who are no threat to the USA.

Not a defense force, but an aggression force. There is a mountain of difference.


Those marines are Americans too. Why would any responsible American citizen begrudge their fellow Americans the opportunity to train? It's not like they were using real bullets. If the exercise gave those marines training which kept even one member alive in a real fight, it's worth a little inconvenience to the rest of us in my opinion.

[apdst]

deleted

[Cobra]

I could see how active troop training in a cty could cause some resident concerns. Lots of loud bangs, ect, but as long as it's well planned and te people notified it shouln't be that big of deal. Enough of a deal for say the mayor to have any "real" reason refuse to allow the training. After all it's what, 1 or 2 days that could save peoples lives if those marines had to fight in such an urban setting.

[AnnEsthesia]

So they cannot run these training missions someplace secure away from citizens? I can understand why the mayor would worry about this happening in his downtown. I know I would not feel too safe if there were armed people in camo running around the downtown where I work.

[Cobra]

There already are ared people running around where you work. Maybe not in cammo or trained but armed just the same. I'd say the marines with fake bullets would probably be safer then usual.

[apdst]

Why would any resposible mayor allow a military training operation in his downtown area?

Oh, I dunno, support of his fellow citizens who are learning how to stay alive while fighting on urban terrain, maybe? That's just a guess.

The military could easily spend a few bucks to simulate it

But, would it be as realistic? Afterall, isn't realism the most lacking and most key ingredient in combat training? I really liked this part of the article: "I told him, as a former marine, that if one young marine’s life is saved because of training he or she received in Toledo, Ohio, then it was worth the inconvenience.” Alotta truth on that statement.

a mission that has nothing to do with their interests.

The United States Armed Forces are keepers of the freedoms that The Citizens of Toledo enjoy. I hardly think that the training mission, "has nothing to do with their interests". What if some of those Marines are citizens of Toledo? Would it then have something to do with, "their interests"?


The Marines are an instrument of a despicable militarist foreign policy by the US.

Ahh, now we know how you really feel. In other words, you opposition to Marines gaining valuable and probably life saving training is motivated because of your political bias towards The United States Military.

Not a defense force, but an aggression force. There is a mountain of difference.

The best defense is a good offense. So, no, there's no difference.

During the Louisiana Manuevers in 1940, Army units set up camp on my grandpa's farm. They didn't really ask, they just kinda gently showed up and set things up. And you know what? It was ok, because my grandparents knew that the training that these men were recieving would save their lives one day.[hr]So they cannot run these training missions someplace secure away from citizens? I can understand why the mayor would worry about this happening in his downtown. I know I would not feel too safe if there were armed people in camo running around the downtown where I work.

The training was being conducted on a weekend.

[Easy90]

Don't fret Apdst...The libs are just expressing how they "support the troops." LOL! Except for that one guy, who's totally insane...I'd say the libs here are typical of the kind you find here: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/Homefndr/Libshonoringtheflag.jpg

[Elrathin]

The police do not run the city and in this case they did not coordinate with the mayors office. Their mistake and this is a non-issue. The next time go through the proper channels for approval.

The fact the mayor doesn't want Troops running around the city practicing (even if it is on a weekend) is a matter between him and the citizens that elect him. There are lots of cities around the U.S. that would not allow this type of practice to go along and there are others that do allow it, so coordinate with those that do allow it and move on.[hr]
Don't fret Apdst...The libs are just expressing how they "support the troops." LOL! Except for that one guy, who's totally insane...I'd say the libs here are typical of the kind you find here:


Yes because if you don't allow military to train in your city, you must be anti-troops, what a crock of BS.

[Easy90]

"Yes because if you don't allow military to train in your city, you must be anti-troops"

Ah...yeah...I would say that's a reasonable assumption...

[Elrathin]

"Yes because if you don't allow military to train in your city, you must be anti-troops"

Ah...yeah...I would say that's a reasonable assumption...


Then you would be ASSuming too much. There are safety considerations and the well being of constituents within the city to also think about. There are reasons we have training bases around the country, use them, that's what we pay for them to use.

[apdst]

There are reasons we have training bases around the country, use them, that's what we pay for them to use.

And you know was well as I do that adequate MOUT sites are few and far between. What happens when you run the same training scenario over and over again? Complacency. Yes?

Ah...yeah...I would say that's a reasonable assumption...

Indeed!

[Cobra]

"Yes because if you don't allow military to train in your city, you must be anti-troops"

Ah...yeah...I would say that's a reasonable assumption...


I wouldn't go that far. There are some reasonable considerations the city has to take into account. How much will this disturb business, will it hurt the city economy, block up traffic to an extent it could cause big issues, loud bangs and noise concerns.

[apdst]

I wouldn't go that far. There are some reasonable considerations the city has to take into account. How much will this disturb business,

It's a weekend!

loud bangs and noise concerns.

Tell them they can't use pyrotechnics. Problem solved.

[Cobra]

It's a weekend!

Not talking this perticulier case but in general not wanting active military training in city doesn't have to be anti-troop and anti-American.

[apdst]

not wanting active military training in city doesn't have to be anti-troop and anti-American.

Yeah, that's right. We want'em to get the best training possible...as long as it doesn't cause US a seconds inconvenience.

God forbid that a serviceman survive on the battlefield.

[SouthernLadyGA]

Some of you just need to move to fucking Cuba!

[Cobra]

Yeah, that's right. We want'em to get the best training possible...as long as it doesn't cause US a seconds inconvenience.

The military serves the people, not the other way around. Yeah if it was going to cause big problems I wouldn't have a problem with a city refusing to open themselves as an active training base for troops. The military has other options and other places to go, the city people don't.

I don't agree with this one city because of lack of reason given on the mayors part. Not because I this one issue is a measure of city or population blocks patriotism.

[apdst]

The military has other options and other places to go, the city people don't.

Yeah, I see your point. There are urban training areas just laying around everywhere for use by reservists.

[Troubadour]

Why such a hard on for The Corps? I'm sure it's the military in general. It just happens to be the Marines in the two instances of late


Given the number of bases the military has all over the world and the United States, with urban warfare training mockups in many of them, there is simply no excuse to enter an American city loaded for bare. While I'm sure it's purely a matter of convenience from their perspective (or at least I hope it is), it sends an ominous message. Some of us find ourselves asking where the urban combat experience the military is racking up in Iraq will next be employed - perhaps in our own streets against our own people? Frankly, given what I've seen, I highly doubt they would disobey if given such orders. Members of today's military consider themselves soldiers first and Americans second.

[apdst]

there is simply no excuse to enter an American city loaded for bare.

I doubt they would be, "loaded for bear".

Given the number of bases the military has all over the world and the United States, with urban warfare training mockups in many of them

Mockups aren't the real thing. Hence the lack of realism in the training. However, these are reservists that may not have the resources to use another post.

Some of us find ourselves asking where the urban combat experience the military is racking up in Iraq will next be employed - perhaps in our own streets against our own people?

Every country has builtup areas.


Members of today's military consider themselves soldiers first and Americans second.

I love it when Liberals speak their minds.

[cronic]

Hello, the man is on his third term in Toledo so I would think he knows his city pretty well.. If the Mayor thinks it will scare people.. Knowing first hand how Toledo is and how quick things can arise.. then he is doing the right thing..
Ok, there was some miscommunication between the police dept and the mayors office.. Still, I know a few of the patrolmen in Toledo and I can assure you they are not heart broken because the mayor put a stopper in the marines weekend routine practice exercises.

I wonder if easy90 or apdst has ever been to Toledo?. I practically live there.. its a few miles north of me.. I'm there often..I have family that live all over Toledo. Downtown, on the east side and the south end. Some on the North end..

So, lets start with the "Tell them pyrotechnics can't be used, problem solved" statement.. . How clueless can one be! I seriously doubt thats what the mayor is worried about...Believe me they have enough pyrotechnics already...Unless you live there, You have no idea what your talking about. The arson rate in Toledo is almost 5 times the national average so a few booms and sparks is nothing to them.

now the statement.."he must be anti - troops because he doesn't want them in the city for a weekend practicing exercises".. really?.. you know this personally? Sorry, that has nothing to do with it.. If you would read the first quote in the first post..then you will see his reasons. Go back to post # 1

There is over 300,000 people in the city...Crime is bad in Toledo. The city of Toledo crime level is worse than the national average in all areas and aspects..Lets list them. Murder, Auto theft, Aggravated assaults, Arson, Rapes, Robberies, Burglaries, Larceny, .. "All" higher then the national average .. that means.. higher then most cities in the country.

The mayor already has to worry about the gangs in the city which their are plenty of.. There are also homeless people all over in Toledo.. Take a drive down Broadway street.. You will see!! They have cut their police force alot in the last few years due to budget cuts.. They are severely understaffed now the way it is. There are some streets in Toledo that the police don't even go down at night unless their in a group.
I respectfully say to the members here that think its so terrible what the mayor has done.. go to Toledo.. do some ride alongs with the police..See the city from a different point of view, from the Mayor's point of view, rather then your shallow political rants and ravings view and your bias comments about how the libs are.

In closing, there are so many huge parks close to Toledo.. there is lots of private ground also.. As fore mentioned...there is a Marine base in Perrysburg Township a few miles away from Toledo .. ( Minutes away ). why wouldn't those places be better suited for exercises other then in the city itself?

[apdst]

In closing, there are so many huge parks close to Toledo.. there is lots of private ground also.. As fore mentioned...there is a Marine base in Perrysburg Township a few miles away from Toledo .. ( Minutes away ). why wouldn't those places be better suited for exercises other then in the city itself?

And you call others clueless?

[PatrickHenry]

...Why would any responsible American citizen begrudge their fellow Americans the opportunity to train? It's not like they were using real bullets. If the exercise gave those marines training which kept even one member alive in a real fight, it's worth a little inconvenience to the rest of us in my opinion.
OK, I'll give the USMC your address and tell them that Trish says she'd love to have them trample her flowers and yard and drop shell casings in her pool down in Houston. She says it's worth the inconvenience to her.

The rest of us?...not so much...

Listen, the USMC has plenty of money to occupy a nation that did no harm to the US. They can spare the minibucks for a city to play their aggression games in. And grassroots democracy says we don't have to invite them to train in our cities...

[cronic]

In closing, there are so many huge parks close to Toledo.. there is lots of private ground also.. As fore mentioned...there is a Marine base in Perrysburg Township a few miles away from Toledo .. ( Minutes away ). why wouldn't those places be better suited for exercises other then in the city itself?

And you call others clueless?


not many others.. lol.. only the ones that know who they are!!!.. Winkz

Isn't it funny how all the facts I state about why, inside the city of Toledo would not be a good idea to allow the marines to have there weekend practice. you can't debate or dispute 1 fact or opinion against it. Rather all you can come up with is.. "and you call others clueless".. That's your rebuttal? OK well..if you want military practice exercises in your city.. then invite them into your back yard.. I don't want them in mine thank you and for good reason.. Reasons I stated before.. reasons you can't find anything to say against!

[Grizz]

There was a large training exercise a few years back at a closed hotel down the street from where I work. The hotel is adjacent to a major interstate, but not part of a downtown area. It was fascinating to watch the "assault". Caused no problems whatsoever. I note that the training was supposed to start on Friday afternoon. Don't know about traffic conditions in Toledo, but that would be a disaster of the first magnitude in Atlanta.

[preservanation]

In closing, there are so many huge parks close to Toledo.. there is lots of private ground also.. As fore mentioned...there is a Marine base in Perrysburg Township a few miles away from Toledo .. ( Minutes away ). why wouldn't those places be better suited for exercises other then in the city itself?

And you call others clueless?
Amazing, isn't it apdst?1-24th Marines were scheduled for weekend urban warfare training
What about urban denotes bucolic parks with duckies and horse-shoe pits?

The sound and sight of the USMC training...is the sound and sight of our freedom.
Those who feel that our freedom is disruptive, just don't get it.

[Easy90]

These clueless libs kind of remind me of the "concerned citizen" in Phoenix who wrote a letter to the Arizona Republic complaining about the formation of F-16s that flew (too low for him) where he thought they were just "hot-dogging"...and the subsequent reply from Luke Commander informing him of the reason for the flight.

The "citizen" said he hoped they were having a good time at taxpayer's expense....

The commander explained to the clueless complainer that what he saw was a formation that was not having that "good of a time," but rather, they were paying tribute at the funeral of one of their fellow squadron pilots that had been killed in battle...and that he would relay the "citizen"s expressions to the widow who was graveside, and the fellow pilots who were paying tribute via the missing man fly over.

It's astounding how some citizens in this country are so ignorant of their own military...and of the jobs they do on behalf of this nation. Some of the above posts are ample evidence that people are absolutely out of touch...Thanks, education system.

[Trish]

...Why would any responsible American citizen begrudge their fellow Americans the opportunity to train? It's not like they were using real bullets. If the exercise gave those marines training which kept even one member alive in a real fight, it's worth a little inconvenience to the rest of us in my opinion.
OK, I'll give the USMC your address and tell them that Trish says she'd love to have them trample her flowers and yard and drop shell casings in her pool down in Houston. She says it's worth the inconvenience to her.

The rest of us?...not so much...

Listen, the USMC has plenty of money to occupy a nation that did no harm to the US. They can spare the minibucks for a city to play their aggression games in. And grassroots democracy says we don't have to invite them to train in our cities...


And they'd be welcome. I'm not "in" Houston. I reside in a rural area outside of a small city slightly north of Houston, however, if they need my 3 1/2 acres for training - it's theirs. I'll make them coffee, tea, sandwiches, whatever they need. I'll do my best to look after them just as I would hope some other soul would look after my Marine-nephew if he should need looking after. I may not know one single solitary person in that Marine company, but every last one of them is my son, daughter, nephew, neice, brother, sister, uncle, father - every last one of them. I don't have many flowers in my yard, but I do have fruit trees. All the trees, flowers, garden space, etc. is not worth one hangnail for those marines.

I keep hearing the words of my late father. The one that was at Pearl Harbor in 41. The one that saw the first Japanese bomb hit an American ship. The one who suffered PTSD for the rest of his life (he died just last year) because of what he saw and what he did during the war. I keep hearing him tell me that despite what he suffered, despite the hardship, he'd do it all again because this country had been good to him. That freedom isn't free and if he had to go back and fight he would, because it would mean it was just his time to pay the bill, just as it had been at Pearl Harbor. So let them tromp on my flowers if they need to train here, let them leave casings in my pool (and yes, I have a pool). I'll support them however I can because it would simply be MY turn to pay part of the bill for the freedom we all enjoy.

So, yes PH, by all means give them my address. I'd be privileged and honored to be of service to them as they have been of service to me and every other American - past, present, and future.

[apdst]

I'll make them coffee, tea, sandwiches, whatever they need.

Um, can I come train over there?...LOL

[Troubadour]

I doubt they would be, "loaded for bear".


Using blanks doesn't change what it looks like.


Mockups aren't the real thing. Hence the lack of realism in the training.


American cities aren't the real thing either - urban warfare occurs amid ruins, with countless nooks and crannies to hide IEDs and enemies. There is zero possibility of foreign occupation of American cities, so the only purpose of combat training in them would be if the Pentagon wanted to invade and occupy them.


However, these are reservists that may not have the resources to use another post.


Including Iraq expenses funded under "emergency rules" (LMAO), the military is now half the federal budget. If they claim they can't afford to provide training facilities to every single unit slated for deployment, they're lying.


Every country has builtup areas.


We're not at war with or threatened by "every country." In point of fact, we (the United States) are not at war with anyone right now. Bush's Iraq operations are treasonous aggression, and Afghanistan is a NATO operation in support of the Karzai government. The sole nation on Earth still capable of threatening us - China - has been given such control over our economy and politics that relatively few of our resources are committed to protecting Taiwan. Were it to be invaded, there's a strong possibility the Bush regime (or future Republican ones) would simply protest and write it off in order to continue with imperial operations in the Middle East.


I love it when Liberals speak their minds.


Then you are a most uncommon conservative.

[apdst]

Using blanks doesn't change what it looks like.

And?

American cities aren't the real thing either - urban warfare occurs amid ruins,

Not neccessarily. Baghdad isn't in ruins. Fallujah isn't in ruins. Mogadishu wasn't in ruins.

the only purpose of combat training in them would be if the Pentagon wanted to invade and occupy them.

Your inability to comprehend the objective of the training is obvious by this comment. Combat training, especially MOUT (Military Operations on Urban Terrain) training is used to give an overview of combat doctrine. It's used to test and refine the basic skills of soldiers and leaders and to teach them to think in certain situations. The MOUT training was never intended to replicate a certain scenario, that would be impossible. The objective of MOUT training is to teach soldiers and leaders to think. To understand angles of attack; make them aware of all the possibilities that can occur on an urban battlefield. It teaches them how to clear rooms; cross danger areas such as streets, doorways, basment windows, how to manuever down a hallway. Afterall, a hall is a hall and a room is a room. It don't much matter what part of The World your in, those two facts remain the same.

Including Iraq expenses funded under "emergency rules" (LMAO), the military is now half the federal budget. If they claim they can't afford to provide training facilities to every single unit slated for deployment, they're lying.

You complain that too much money is spent on the military and now you complain when they try to save a million, or so on training.

[preservanation]

You complain that too much money is spent on the military and now you complain when they try to save a million, or so on training. Excellent point.
Or...some complain and point fingers about casualties, but oppose the exact mechanisms which will do the most to prevent them.

[apdst]

some complain and point fingers about casualties, but oppose the exact mechanisms which will do the most to prevent them.

That's absolutely right! The same Libs that bitch because the military wants to train in a real live city are the same ones that have been bitching about how poorly trained our military is. The hypocrisy is trully mind boggling.

[Trish]

I'll make them coffee, tea, sandwiches, whatever they need.

Um, can I come train over there?...LOL


Sure, come on. I make one hell of a pot of chicken and dumplings, too. So come and be welcome. It ain't fancy, but I can promise you'd be well-fed, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed while you're here! :thumbsup:

[Troubadour]

Using blanks doesn't change what it looks like.

And?


And it looks like a threat.


Not neccessarily. Baghdad isn't in ruins. Fallujah isn't in ruins. Mogadishu wasn't in ruins.


Baghdad and Fallujah may not look like 1945 Berlin, but they are indeed ruined - burned cars and buildings, shattered walls, miscellaneous rubble, etc. are commonplace. When a building is destroyed by bombing, or a car bomb goes off, or a firefight swiss-cheeses a neighborhood, there's nobody to repair anything or clean up beyond burying the bodies and maybe patching up walls on their own houses if they have the resources. In other words, they look like what they are - war zones. As for Mogadishu, yes it was in ruins, and it remains in ruins. Downtown Toledo might as well be the Akihabara district of Tokyo for all it resembles any environment soldiers would ever encounter. They might as well train at Disneyland.


It teaches them how to clear rooms; cross danger areas such as streets, doorways, basment windows, how to manuever down a hallway. Afterall, a hall is a hall and a room is a room. It don't much matter what part of The World your in, those two facts remain the same.


Ah, and there are no rooms, streets, doorways, basement windows, or hallways on military bases, I presume? They must go to downtown Toledo for that.


You complain that too much money is spent on the military and now you complain when they try to save a million, or so on training.


The military wastes billions like you or I lose change in our couch cushions. Don't tell me skimping on plywood mockups is a cost-saving strategy.

[Easy90]

And it looks like a threat.

No...they're on our side. (Assuming you're American...and that could be a leap.)

[Elrathin]

Well it's settled then, Easy 90, Trish, apsd, and Preservanation can all volunteer their property for any military exercises. Now just get more supporters and you guys don't have to worry about the training of the U.S. military. Be sure and send those guys your addresses and we'll look forward to seeing their exercises done on your property then. If not, it means you didn't send your addresses and the sincerity is phony.

[apdst]

but I can promise you'd be well-fed

That's all that counts. Call me anything but late for supper...LOL.

[Troubadour]

And it looks like a threat.

No...they're on our side.


They haven't been on our side in decades. The military spent hundreds of millions of dollars last year developing crowd control technology and testing ways to disrupt protests - something useful only to a corps of professional occupiers looking to pacify a captive population, not an army of defense. Given a declaration of martial law, every tactic developed in Iraq to crush the Iraqi people would be employed against Americans, and you can rest assured (as you probably would, if you truly believe "they're on our side") that such a declaration is just one Republican victory and one terrorist attack away. I would say quite a few conservatives actually yearn for it.


Assuming you're American...and that could be a leap.)


Mister, I have to wonder if you've ever met an American.

[apdst]

The military spent hundreds of millions of dollars last year developing crowd control technology and testing ways to disrupt protests

Would you rather they just control crowds the old fashion way? With machine guns?

Given a declaration of martial law, every tactic developed in Iraq to crush the Iraqi people would be employed against Americans, and you can rest assured (as you probably would, if you truly believe "they're on our side") that such a declaration is just one Republican victory and one terrorist attack away. I would say quite a few conservatives actually yearn for it.

That's paranoia of the highest order.

[Easy90]

And it looks like a threat.

No...they're on our side.


They haven't been on our side in decades. The military spent hundreds of millions of dollars last year developing crowd control technology and testing ways to disrupt protests - something useful only to a corps of professional occupiers looking to pacify a captive population, not an army of defense. Given a declaration of martial law, every tactic developed in Iraq to crush the Iraqi people would be employed against Americans, and you can rest assured (as you probably would, if you truly believe "they're on our side") that such a declaration is just one Republican victory and one terrorist attack away. I would say quite a few conservatives actually yearn for it.


Assuming you're American...and that could be a leap.)


Mister, I have to wonder if you've ever met an American.


Never met someone like you who claimed he was American. But then, I tend to travel in more "sane" circles I think. As for your clap trap about our military not being "on our side" you're just nuts. Have a nice "nutty" day.

[apdst]

As for your clap trap about our military not being "on our side" you're just nuts.

yeah, no kiddin'. You're a textbook Liberal.

[Labrocca]

They haven't been on our side in decades. The military spent hundreds of millions of dollars last year developing crowd control technology and testing ways to disrupt protests - something useful only to a corps of professional occupiers looking to pacify a captive population, not an army of defense. Given a declaration of martial law, every tactic developed in Iraq to crush the Iraqi people would be employed against Americans, and you can rest assured (as you probably would, if you truly believe "they're on our side") that such a declaration is just one Republican victory and one terrorist attack away. I would say quite a few conservatives actually yearn for it.


Complete nonsense. Do you really believe what you are saying or just looking for shock value?

It's just as easy to say that since they developed nuclear weapons that they will use them on rioting college students the next time they protest. Please....your statement is blatant paranoia.

Now back to topic:

The Military should be allowed to train where it wants. Toledo as mentioned in this thread has a higher than average crime rate. So let's not put too much emphasis on the good deeds of the mayor since he can't even control the crime rate. Maybe some soilders running around might actually stop a few crimes that day. Scare citizens? I don't see how that's possible. Whenever I see a person in uniform I am awed not scared. It takes a pussy-arse liberal to get scared of a gun and a man in uniform. Liberals think military = fascism or something to that effect.

Anyone here want to take a guess at what political party?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carty_Finkbeiner

http://toledo.areaconnect.com/crime1.htm

Violent crimes are MUCH greater than the national average. Unreal. Mayor been there since 1993 too. And this tool thinks he should worry about military training?

[apdst]

With the crime rate being what it is, a military presence would probably make the citizens feel more comfortable, than the Toledo PD does...LOL

[Troubadour]

Would you rather they just control crowds the old fashion way? With machine guns?


It's not their job to control crowds. Their job is to defend the United States Constitution against foreign conquest. What part of that do you (and they) not understand? :ponder:


That's paranoia of the highest order.


And that's irony of the highest order. To hear Republicans tell it, we're surrounded on all sides and being infiltrated in every town and community by demonic enemies who will stop at nothing to kill us all...and yet here you are discounting that a Republican president would deploy the military into American streets after a major terrorist attack, let alone do to Americans what they've done to Iraqis every day without blinking. Surely patriotism or respect for the Constitution would stop them from giving such orders, or the military from obeying them, right? :madlaugh:

[Troubadour]

Complete nonsense. Do you really believe what you are saying or just looking for shock value?


Do you find it shocking to hear that the military isn't your friend?


It's just as easy to say that since they developed nuclear weapons that they will use them on rioting college students the next time they protest. Please....your statement is blatant paranoia.


Nuclear weapons weren't developed for crowd control. Please, you're not making any sense at all.


The Military should be allowed to train where it wants.


Like, for instance, around polling stations on Election Day?


Toledo as mentioned in this thread has a higher than average crime rate.


Higher than average?! :shock: Well, that changes everything - I guess it is a valid analog for Baghdad.


Maybe some soilders running around might actually stop a few crimes that day.


Martial law would stop a lot of crimes...at least by civilians.


Scare citizens? I don't see how that's possible.


Yeah, who's afraid of guys with machine guns and APCs barreling down the streets of their community, stalking around corners with rifles at ready, firing off rounds and barking incoherently? You've seen it in Halo, so surely it can't be that alarming in real life.


Whenever I see a person in uniform I am awed not scared.


In awe of a wardrobe...how does one get such high standards? :madlaugh:


It takes a pussy-arse liberal to get scared of a gun and a man in uniform.


Liberals are not afraid of cowards.


Liberals think military = fascism or something to that effect.


Elevation of the military above moral and legal standards = fascism.


Anyone here want to take a guess at what political party?


Uhhhh...is it Whigs? No, no, wait...is it Bull Moose? I'm on pins and needles here, don't keep me in suspense!


And this tool thinks he should worry about military training?


He probably worries about both. Typical Republicans may not know this, but most human beings can hold more than one priority in their heads.

[apdst]

Their job is to defend the United States Constitution against foreign conquest. What part of that do you (and they) not understand?

And to obey the order of The President of The United States and the officers appointed ot lead them. It's you, sir, that lacks the understanding.

[Troubadour]

Their job is to defend the United States Constitution against foreign conquest. What part of that do you (and they) not understand?

And to obey the order of The President of The United States and the officers appointed ot lead them.


Unless the orders they give are illegal. Check and mate.[hr]
yeah, no kiddin'. You're a textbook Liberal.


Yes, I've read many textbooks. That comes of having an education, but liberalism doesn't come from books - the desire to read them comes from liberalism. Sort of like the desire to burn them comes from conservatism. But please, we digress - back to the issue. This is a liberal country, and Toledo is the property of its residents, so barring a real national emergency where access to it is clearly necessary, it is entirely at the discretion of the local government if, when, and where the military may conduct exercises there. Anyone who has a problem with the principles of a free republic in this regard would probably be more comfortable in China. Military is venerated there, and brooks no back-talk from mere citizens.

[preservanation]

Unless the orders they give are illegal. Check and mate.I hear this over and over and over, like I'm living next to the interstate.
YET, nothing to substanciate this claim.
I'm of the mind that the left believes if they can just repeat it enough times it will magically become true.

[Elrathin]

I'm of the mind that the left believes if they can just repeat it enough times it will magically become true.


You mean repeating things like "The insurgency is in it's last throes" over and over until it becomes magically true? Or how about "The economy is doing just fine"? Even though we have to have "stimulus" packages being passed. Hoo Boy.

[preservanation]

No, that Bush is a war criminal which engaged us in an "illegal" war. Things like that...

[Elrathin]

No, that Bush is a war criminal which engaged us in an "illegal" war. Things like that...


Just like the right calling anyone that doesn't believe in torture "terrorist supporters" and "un-American". Gotcha.

[preservanation]

Being un-American is not a criminal offence.
We don't have the prison space.
Maybe after we empty out Gitmo...

[Tharagor]

Yeah, that's right. We want'em to get the best training possible...as long as it doesn't cause US a seconds inconvenience.

God forbid that a serviceman survive on the battlefield.


Well, perhaps if our country would stop chronically misusing our military like it has for the last 62 years people may be a little more willing to deal with the inconvenience.

[apdst]

Unless the orders they give are illegal. Check and mate.

Ok, list those illegal orders for us. I await with baited breath.

Yes, I've read many textbooks. That comes of having an education, but liberalism doesn't come from books - the desire to read them comes from liberalism. Sort of like the desire to burn them comes from conservatism.

Well, you need to kick up the pace on the reading process, because you don't know shit from shinola.

Well, perhaps if our country would stop chronically misusing our military like it has for the last 62 years people may be a little more willing to deal with the inconvenience.

The people didn't make that decision. The mayor did.

[potter]

Why would any resposible mayor allow a military training operation in his downtown area?

The military could easily spend a few bucks to simulate it and the citizens of Toledo don't have to move over for a mission that has nothing to do with their interests.

The Marines are an instrument of a despicable militarist foreign policy by the US.

A policy that invades, maims, kills and even occupies people who are no threat to the USA.

Not a defense force, but an aggression force. There is a mountain of difference.



I wonder how loud the objections to your post would be if the Marines insisted on training in your neighborhoods, in and around your homes....in your yards....

I mean, could you deny them their right to play war games in your yard? In fact anyone should be allowed to carry around guns and pretend "war" anywhere....right? I also think hunters should be allowed to train on city streets and neighborhoods. They can use your pets as target practice.

[Labrocca]

I wonder how loud the objections to your post would be if the Marines insisted on training in your neighborhoods, in and around your homes....in your yards....

I mean, could you deny them their right to play war games in your yard? In fact anyone should be allowed to carry around guns and pretend "war" anywhere....right? I also think hunters should be allowed to train on city streets and neighborhoods. They can use your pets as target practice.



I have the air force fly overhead constantly with VERY loud jets from Nellis. Personally...I love it. I gotta take pics of manuevers for you one day. If the Marines wanted my back yard to train...they can have it.

[Cobra]

Yeah my yard too, my life is boring, getting to watch something like that would be cool.

[potter]

I wonder how loud the objections to your post would be if the Marines insisted on training in your neighborhoods, in and around your homes....in your yards....

I mean, could you deny them their right to play war games in your yard? In fact anyone should be allowed to carry around guns and pretend "war" anywhere....right? I also think hunters should be allowed to train on city streets and neighborhoods. They can use your pets as target practice.



I have the air force fly overhead constantly with VERY loud jets from Nellis. Personally...I love it. I gotta take pics of manuevers for you one day. If the Marines wanted my back yard to train...they can have it.



I'm on an air force flight path too. I don't particularly like it and would prefer some quiet.

I must admit I'm surprised at your response though. So where would you draw the line at government intrusion in your life...or would you? Do you like big government monitoring and recording your life?

[AlanC]

I'm on an air force flight path too. I don't particularly like it and would prefer some quiet.

I must admit I'm surprised at your response though. So where would you draw the line at government intrusion in your life...or would you? Do you like big government monitoring and recording your life?


I'm not sure how you got to these subjects from the initial post on this thread. Training for urban warfare takes an urban setting. Not a field, a forest or even anyone's backyard. You cannot duplicate high rise buildings, wide streets and the general atmosphere of like the center of any city.

These exercises were to be conducted on a weekend, when a great many busness centers are more of less deserted. Adequate notification of what is happening should alleviate any citizen worries.

The point to be noted in this story is that it had been done before. The mayor seems to have a personal preference that it not take place, but I don't see any citation of problems or inconveniences to the citizenry that could have formed a legitimate basis for wanting to deny or restrict this training.

There were no demands. They made a request and it was granted. The permission was withdrawn and they turned around and went back. There was no intrusion by the Marines. There was the appearance of some incredibly inept timing on the part of the city, but what else is new.

It truely is rather amazing that policemen and soldiers are heros when they are needed. But any other time, some would prefer they stay out of sight and out of mind. Such resentment is surprising to me.

[potter]

It truely is rather amazing that policemen and soldiers are heros when they are needed. But any other time, some would prefer they stay out of sight and out of mind. Such resentment is surprising to me.


I suppose it depends on your POV...I see them simply as government agents more than willing to take away my freedom for whomever pays their bosses the most.

[Trish]

It truely is rather amazing that policemen and soldiers are heros when they are needed. But any other time, some would prefer they stay out of sight and out of mind. Such resentment is surprising to me.


I suppose it depends on your POV...I see them simply as government agents more than willing to take away my freedom for whomever pays their bosses the most.


And ready to give up their lives to protect you and yours along with me and mine. Yep....real simple these government agents. Real simple-minded to put the ultimate freedom on the line - their own lives - to protect people with no appreciation, no respect, no personal honor, no sense of obligation.

[potter]

And ready to give up their lives to protect you and yours along with me
[/quote]

That's entirely their decision. I do not want nor do I need them to "protect me"

You must like the nanny state we live in eh?

[Wndrtch]

I noticed the mayor didn't have the balls to tell the Marines himself


He couldn't. He was having his nails painted yellow.

Does anybody know what the party affiliation is for this Mayor? I didn't see it in the article, which would indicate he's a Democrat hack, otherwise we would have read about this on the evening news.

Hey Dems, congratulations on another proud "I Support the Troops" moment.

[Questerr]

Not neccessarily. Baghdad isn't in ruins. Fallujah isn't in ruins. Mogadishu wasn't in ruins.


You've obviously never been there. It was ruins when I was there and that wasn't very long ago. US cities also don't have massive piles of trash piled up along every road, sewage running in the street, and "streets" with swish cheese potholes to hide IEDs in. We'd need those to simulate Iraq properly.

Otherwise any of the dozens of Urban training areas at US bases would do.

[preservanation]

That's entirely their decision. I do not want nor do I need them to "protect me"
Potter, this statement seems like it's from a 14 year old who is mad at mommy and daddy and is threatening to leave home.
"I don't need you, I can do it by myself!"
Then it starts raining, and they get hungry, the cell phone goes dead, the bully at the Slurpy-Stop steals their sneakers, their cloths get stinky, hives break out, they miss MTV Cribs, and they finally come running home begging to be let back in because they realize that they can't make it in the big bad world without their "mean old parents".
We would cease to exist without the US Military, whether you realize it now, or not.

[potter]

That's entirely their decision. I do not want nor do I need them to "protect me"
Potter, this statement seems like it's from a 14 year old who is mad at mommy and daddy and is threatening to leave home.
"I don't need you, I can do it by myself!"
Then it starts raining, and they get hungry, the cell phone goes dead, the bully at the Slurpy-Stop steals their sneakers, their cloths get stinky, hives break out, they miss MTV Cribs, and they finally come running home begging to be let back in because they realize that they can't make it in the big bad world without their "mean old parents".
We would cease to exist without the US Military, whether you realize it now, or not.


We would huh? Would that be because our government has so poisoned the world to our country through it's meddling and destructive behaviour at the beheist of corporate America that no one wants us around any more? It's certainly not because of anything I've done.

[Wndrtch]

That's entirely their decision. I do not want nor do I need them to "protect me"

So I guess that means you don't need law-enforcement, or Firefighters, or hospitols to help your either.

We would huh? Would that be because our government has so poisoned the world to our country through it's meddling and destructive behaviour at the beheist of corporate America that no one wants us around any more? It's certainly not because of anything I've done.

Name me one prosperous nation, that doesn't trade with the US.

If we are hated so much, then why did France elect a Pro American leader?

As far as Evil Corporate America is concerned, how much did you donate to charity last year, compared with Exxone/Mobile? Liberals adeep-down like evil corporations, because it always provides them with an excuse for why their lives are miserable, and alows them to avoid looking into the mirror.

[preservanation]

Potter,
Please tell me you are advocating for the elimination of the US Military.
That makes about as much sense as ridding our nation of corporations.

Both those entities sustain us as the most enviable nation on earth...that and adherence to our constitution makes our freedom possible

[BoogyMan]

I'm on an air force flight path too. I don't particularly like it and would prefer some quiet.

I must admit I'm surprised at your response though. So where would you draw the line at government intrusion in your life...or would you? Do you like big government monitoring and recording your life?


potter you lost me on this one. How did we go from the mayor of Toledo tossing the marines out right before their maneuvers were to begin to big government monitoring and recording your life?

We have the NATO pilot training program at Sheppard AFB here and there is some cool stuff we get to see flying over on a regular basis as well.

[Easy90]

Potter is a victim of "Bush Derangement Syndrome." It's exclusive to Liberals and wacky Libertarians/Anarchists who simply can't come to grips and accept that Bush was elected over Gore or Kerry. It's marked by the kind of absurd, false, and generally goofy statements you see Liberals in this and most other threads on this forums...like: "The US is hated by all the other countries in the world..." etc.

[Elrathin]

Well I don't know what conservatives are complaining about. If there is any indication on this board, many conservatives will allow the troops to use their property, so stop bitching and start volunteering your land then. Will be looking forward to seeing in the news all these new places the troops have to go train now.

Should be seeing any day now the military announcing all these new places that people on this board have volunteered.

[Troubadour]

Unless the orders they give are illegal. Check and mate.
I hear this over and over and over, like I'm living next to the interstate.
YET, nothing to substanciate this claim.


The willful ignorance of this statement is astounding. The entire body of military case law affirms, and the UCMJ clearly states, that only lawful orders must be obeyed - and that, moreover, following unlawful orders makes subordinates subject to court martial. But I guess you believe if you just deny it long and often enough, like Holocaust deniers and Creationists, maybe somebody will believe you.

[preservanation]

Unless the orders they give are illegal. Check and mate.
I hear this over and over and over, like I'm living next to the interstate.
YET, nothing to substanciate this claim.


The willful ignorance of this statement is astounding. The entire body of military case law affirms, and the UCMJ clearly states, that only lawful orders must be obeyed - and that, moreover, following unlawful orders makes subordinates subject to court martial. But I guess you believe if you just deny it long and often enough, like Holocaust deniers and Creationists, maybe somebody will believe you.
What are those unlawful orders?

[Go Fish]

Yeah, that's right. We want'em to get the best training possible...as long as it doesn't cause US a seconds inconvenience.

God forbid that a serviceman survive on the battlefield.


Well, perhaps if our country would stop chronically misusing our military like it has for the last 62 years people may be a little more willing to deal with the inconvenience.


And what, pray tell, is our military for? You can start with the Barbary pirates. I'm craving your reply.[hr]

Would you rather they just control crowds the old fashion way? With machine guns?


It's not their job to control crowds. Their job is to defend the United States Constitution against foreign conquest. What part of that do you (and they) not understand? :ponder:


That's paranoia of the highest order.


And that's irony of the highest order. To hear Republicans tell it, we're surrounded on all sides and being infiltrated in every town and community by demonic enemies who will stop at nothing to kill us all...and yet here you are discounting that a Republican president would deploy the military into American streets after a major terrorist attack, let alone do to Americans what they've done to Iraqis every day without blinking. Surely patriotism or respect for the Constitution would stop them from giving such orders, or the military from obeying them, right? :madlaugh:


That's "foreign and domestic". Sorry if someone else beat me to the punch, but after just a couple weeks on this forum, I have seen the wisdom of that terminology.

[Easy90]

Obviously, we have some house cleaning of the "domestic" variety that needs doing. LOL!

[Elrathin]

Obviously, we have some house cleaning of the "domestic" variety that needs doing. LOL!


Yep and we start with the biggest load of trash when Bush has to leave the Whitehouse.

[apdst]

You've obviously never been there. It was ruins when I was there and that wasn't very long ago.

Baghdad isn't in ruins. Sorry.

US cities also don't have massive piles of trash piled up along every road, sewage running in the street, and "streets" with swish cheese potholes to hide IEDs in. We'd need those to simulate Iraq properly.

Obviously you don't live in The USA. Come to Louisiana, I'll show you some potholes in which to implace IEDs

[Osborn F. Enready]

Well, I tell ya what folks.

I am a resident of Toledo, East Side by the way, and I was against the training last time, as I was this time.

I personally feel that the reason the Marines didn't go through the proper protocol this time, to notify the city, is because of the flak the city caught last time about allowing the training. I think they knew the city would refuse, as they should have, because the people didn't want it.

By the way, before any of the warmongers start calling me un-american, or non- patriotic, I served my time in the military and you and your opinion can try pissing up a rope. Toledo has a ton of its own problems right now, and doesn't need any help from the Marines damaging property or forcing us to re-allocate our police, fire and emergency crews when they are needed elsewhere.

Toledo is also trying to bring life back to the downtown area on the weekends, a trend that isn't taking hold, and business is suffering greatly because of it. Toledo now has housing downtown, in an attempt to revitalize some of the older, larger buildings evacuated by corporations who have offshored or moved to lower tax areas, as it is also trying to bring weekend events back to downtown to all venues, including a performing arts theather, a convention center, and a soon to be new and rebuilt sports arena that they couldn't afford, all of which surrounded by local small businesses and chain commercial stores.

This city is hurting, the populace doesn't trust its local government or media, and the last thing we need added to the mix is the military training in the middle of the downtown area putting people and property at risk.


I love and respect our military, both full-time and reserves. However, there is no need for these types of things to happen when they aren't invited and/or welcomed to participate by the city, when the city or the situation deem it necessary or advisable.

[apdst]

It sounds to me like you could use alotta help from the Corps. It doesn't look like you'all can handle the situation on your own. Just an observation.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Your observation deck seems to face a large brown circular object, stand back further. ;)

If anything, its TOO MUCH government interference thats causing the failing economy, which drives the crime rate, the degradation of neigborhoods, schools, hospitals, etc.

No, thanks.... the last thing we need is more government, or government agents running around doing "their thing" at our expense X 25, once you understand how much its going to cost with all angles being counted.

[apdst]

This post was last modified: Today 09:44 PM by Osborn F. Enready.

It obviously took a while to come up with a smartass response.

[Osborn F. Enready]

The smart ass response was knee-jerk, the addition of the reasoning was why I edited it.

I don't know why I edited it however, you didn't grasp the reason in the first posts, so why should the second or third make it any clearer?

Point one: The city can't afford it right now.
Point two: The infrastructure can't afford it right now.
Point three: The people don't support the idea.
Point four: Its an additional source of friction between a populace and a government that are largely at odds on most issues currently.


As if our city doesn't give enough to the military, investigate how many from Ohio died in this and the last few wars chief, and then look at how many bases there are here, and near here.[hr]By the way, Detroit Michigan, a few miles north of Toledo, Ohio, has a virtual ghost-town going on in some areas, which would far more suit the needs of the military training they were performing.

Never mind that though, that might actually make sense.

[cronic]

Nice post Os, I was hoping and waiting for you to get in on this thread.. You are a down home boy and resident of Toledo.. so.. Thank you for your good points...Honestly.. I think you have more of a right to say then anyone else posting here about them being there or not being there as thats your home.. My family that live in Toledo share your same opinions. Still its always nice to hear what others say should happen in a place they don't occupy themselves and have to look on a map to find, versus ask the residents living and working there.

I tried to explain myself a few reasons as to why the maneuvers would not be a good idea by listing some of the many problems The city faces. the population of the city as well as stressing the crime rates in all the areas ( well not jaywalking..) just the little stuff.. like murder, rape, larceny and grand theft.. But all the rebuttal I got back was.. "and you call others clueless".. thats the best apdst and his buddies could do.. I'm thinking it was said because I suggested they do their urban maneuvers outside the city like at a park or private land.. others pointed out also that there are plenty of mock places set up for these types of maneuvers. I guess they feel I really don't know what I'm talking about because I'm to far on the left.. and apparently my friend, even tho you live, work and breath the air there in Toledo.. you like me.. must not know what you are talking about!!

[Osborn F. Enready]

Thanks cronic, and I meant to thank you for the post you put up previously in this thread but was sidetracked by reading the bulk of the responses.

I have lived here my entire life, except when I moved with my service in the Navy. Toledo has problems, and I find the growth of government interference here simply unacceptable both to business and citizens. Its a shame, I love the area, love the enviroment (that isn't spoiled by the refineries or government foul-ups) but the failing local governments are driving me out of the area. I have been active in some local marches and petitions, as well as I supported and helped a Libertarian run for Governor, but I don't see a lot of hope for this area if the government keeps growing, and worse yet being rewarded, while failing to do its job.

[apdst]

The smart ass response was knee-jerk, the addition of the reasoning was why I edited it.

I had been modified when it was still just a smartass kneejerk...LOL

[Labrocca]

By the way, before any of the warmongers start calling me un-american, or non- patriotic, I served my time in the military and you and your opinion can try pissing up a rope.

So they can't call you unamerican but you can slur them as warmongers?

Other than that your response was pretty good. It's great to see a local give their input.

[Troubadour]

Unless the orders they give are illegal. Check and mate.

Ok, list those illegal orders for us. I await with baited breath.


You know very well what illegal orders I'm referring to - the invasion and occupation of Iraq. International law - which is American law by virtue of our treaty-bound membership in the UN - does not permit nations to invade and seize each other's territory on the basis of lame-brained geopolitical theories, desire for each other's resources, or an unpopular incumbant party's need for an election platform. The law is further made explicit by the standards established at the Nuremberg tribunals, which explicitly held that wars of aggression are capital crimes. While the vast majority of our military is in blatant violation of our most fundamental laws and values, they cannot be trusted. I support the Mayor of Toledo's decision, although probably for different reasons than his, and would hope more civic leaders take an assertive stance toward the military until its constitutional loyalties are substantively affirmed.


Well, you need to kick up the pace on the reading process, because you don't know sh1t from shinola.


Thus proving you don't know a line from a point. :D[hr]
Potter is a victim of "Bush Derangement Syndrome."


We're all victims of Bush's derangement to one degree or another. Of course, with the exception of oil speculators and military contractors.

[apdst]

You know very well what illegal orders I'm referring to - the invasion and occupation of Iraq. International law - which is American law by virtue of our treaty-bound membership in the UN

I asked for and still insist you show me epcific crimes that have been committed. Thanks in advance, sir.

Personally, I think you've been brainwashed by some far out Libbo commentator and you took it hook, line and sinker. But, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and wait for you to prove your point.

When you're done, I'll prove to you why you're wrong.

[Troubadour]

You know very well what illegal orders I'm referring to - the invasion and occupation of Iraq. International law - which is American law by virtue of our treaty-bound membership in the UN

I asked for and still insist you show me epcific crimes that have been committed. Thanks in advance, sir.


I just told you the specific crime: Waging an aggressive war.


Personally, I think you've been brainwashed by some far out Libbo commentator and you took it hook, line and sinker.


That's stretching the word "think" quite a bit.

[apdst]

I just told you the specific crime: Waging an aggressive war.

Oh, I see. Well, let's look at the historical facts: Iraq has invaded three different sovereign nations, while in the process of waging, "agressive war", and also killed untold millions of innocent civilians by use of illegal targetting practices, and illegal weapons. The Iraqi government has also conducted genocidal operations against an ethnic minority that resides within the borders of Iraq. The Iraqi government has developed and employed chemical weapons upon civilian targets. The Iraqi government has pursued and attempted to developed long range weapons in which to threaten it's neigbors, as well as making specific threats on The United States and Israel, both nonagressor nations and no threat to The Iraqi government. The Iraqi government has also supported terrorist operations against a nonagressor, sovereign nation. The Iraqi government has, for over ten years, violated numerous UN sanctions, laws and resolutions.

The United Nations has, to date, never once protested The American invasion of Iraq. In fact The United Nations gave it's permission to invade Iraq and reinstall a new governmental apparatus.

Ultimately, what has happened, is that The United States government has, with the blessings of Congress and The United Nations, has removed an illegal and dangerous regime from power and in the process neutralized over 40,000 illegal combatants.

Don't it suck when the facts are against you? Have a good evening.

[Tharagor]

Yeah, that's right. We want'em to get the best training possible...as long as it doesn't cause US a seconds inconvenience.

God forbid that a serviceman survive on the battlefield.


Well, perhaps if our country would stop chronically misusing our military like it has for the last 62 years people may be a little more willing to deal with the inconvenience.


And what, pray tell, is our military for? You can start with the Barbary pirates. I'm craving your reply.


Notice I specifically qualified my statement with [quote=Tharagor}the last 62 years{/quote}?

I recognize your ham-handed attempt. The Barbary pirates have nothing to do with the current problems in the Middle East.

[lily]

That's absolutely right! The same Libs that bitch because the military wants to train in a real live city are the same ones that have been bitching about how poorly trained our military is. The hypocrisy is trully mind boggling.


Um no........if you were paying attention, the Libs want the training, it's the government that decided to send them over with fewer months, broken down equipment, poorly armoured vehicles and less than what they need........but don't let the facts stop you

With that said........I'm surprised that the 2 posters from Ohio didn't mention what it looked like. Oh sure the people that read and listen to the news might know what was going on, but someone that's just passing on through would have had a heart attack, seeing soldiers in uniform, guns out, and in full combat mode. They would think we were invaded or something.

As was mentioned.........there are plenty of army bases where this could have taken place, with plenty of Iraqi or Afghainstan Legal citizens of this country to act out the part.......in fact, even though jafar isn't from those countries, he was asked to participate as a hostile, if I'm not mistaken. There is no reason to do this in the middle of a busy city.

[Troubadour]

Never met someone like you who claimed he was American.


People like me don't have to. Someone once asked me why conservatives are so obsessed with our national symbols, and my answer was this: They wrap themselves in the flag, because if they didn't people would mistake them for our enemies. And I say "mistake" only out of fairness to the minority among them who aren't seeking some form of violent tyranny.


But then, I tend to travel in more "sane" circles I think.


Stop traveling in circles and maybe you'll get somewhere.


As for your clap trap about our military not being "on our side" you're just nuts.


Well, I apologize if reality doesn't conform to what you were taught by Rambo films, but however traumatic that realization may be for some people, the military is not there to protect you. It's an institution whose nature, like all others, arises from how it functions, and the way it functions is that (i)officers retire to work for contractors, or move back and forth between Pentagon and private sector positions, making it a poor career move to say or do anything that might decrease the need for contracts (i.e., do their jobs); (ii)contractors contribute money to politicians who favor war - the best circumstance for their bottom line; (iii)those invested in said contractors will overwhelmingly contribute to and vote for those politicians; and (iv)their opponents don't dare criticize them for overspending on the military, because plenty of people will be dumb enough to believe they're "unpatriotic." Net result: Perpetual war; perpetually increasing funding for war, perpetually increasing financial support for politicians who support war, and civilian and military leaders who must look under every rock and behind every tree for excuses to kill. They are not on our side, uniforms are not signifiers of integrity, and war is not the default state of a free society. Grow up, sonny.

[apdst]

it's the government that decided to send them over with fewer months, broken down equipment, poorly armoured vehicles and less than what they need........but don't let the facts stop you

fewer months of what? Cargo trucks don't come with armor, tanks and apc's do. Our troops went onto the battlefield equiped better than any other American army in history. At least they were landing on a artillery riddled beach in plywood boats. Or, crossing a river, under fire, in rubber boats using 2x4's for paddles. Or, would you rather we go back to those times?

someone that's just passing on through would have had a heart attack, seeing soldiers in uniform, guns out, and in full combat mode. They would think we were invaded or something.

And if they thought that, they would be stupid.

[Troubadour]

Oh, I see. Well, let's look at the historical facts: Iraq has invaded three different sovereign nations


Two under Hussein - Iran in 1980 with the direct material support of the Reagan administration (aka, American taxpayer money), followed by Kuwait in 1990 after HW's ambassador formally expressed that Iraq's disputes with Kuwait were "not American business." And had either of those conflicts resulted in his capture, Saddam Hussein could have been charged with aggressive war. But they didn't, he wasn't, and the inconvenience of those choices 13 years later was not a basis for invasion.


The Iraqi government has pursued and attempted to developed long range weapons in which to threaten it's neigbors


Your verb tense suggests you're cut-and-pasting discredited Bush regime propaganda from six years ago, but I'll overlook that for now. At the time inspections were reinstated in 2002, Iraq had not had any such programs underway since 1995.


as well as making specific threats on The United States and Israel, both nonagressor nations and no threat to The Iraqi government.


This is called "begging the question" - i.e., claiming to prove your position by simply restating it. But aside from the bald-faced absurdity of claiming the US was "no threat to the Iraqi government" after it had passed legislation calling for its forcible replacement (1998 Iraq Liberation Act), and later in a climate of increasingly belligerent threats from the George W. Bush regime, the fact remains we were not attacked by Iraq; nobody else had been attacked by Iraq in a decade; it had no plans or capability to attack anyone; and its threats were defensive, desperate, and utterly lacking in credibility. The invasion was the textbook definition of a war of aggression, regardless of how hideous and inhuman the toppled regime was. Some day maybe conservatives will learn they can't justify doing whatever they please to whomever they please by talking about how immoral their enemies are.


The Iraqi government has also supported terrorist operations against a nonagressor, sovereign nation.


If you're referring to Hamas, the same is true of the Saudis - our "allies" and dear friends of the Bush family, not to mention origin of 19 of the 20 hijackers on 9/11. So get this straight: The doctrine of funding terrorist groups being an act of war didn't come about until after 9/11 - before which the United States directly engaged in it against its enemies, and to some extent even after.


The Iraqi government has, for over ten years, violated numerous UN sanctions, laws and resolutions.


And the UN declined to authorize force in response. Or did you believe George W. Bush was the arbiter of how UN resolutions are enforced? Furthermore, the Bush regime has, over the course of its time in power, also violated numerous international laws, so whom do you suggest should invade the United States to force regime change and occupy us? Or does this standard only apply when you don't personally identify with the criminal regime, and when you aren't among the people who might be victimized in the process of replacing it by force?


In fact The United Nations gave it's permission to invade Iraq and reinstall a new governmental apparatus.


Uh, no. The UN debated authorizing force, and failed to do so. And how did Glorious Leader respond to asking for, and failing to get, permission? As per usual when a duly constituted body makes a decision he doesn't like, he ignored it and did whatever he pleased. I have to wonder if even failing to get Congressional support would have stopped the lunatic.


Ultimately, what has happened, is that The United States government has [...] has removed an illegal and dangerous regime from power and in the process neutralized over 40,000 illegal combatants.


The most farcical bit of moth-eaten propaganda yet. It was an illegal regime insofar as it wasn't elected, which is true of virtually all Arab states and our largest trading partner (China). As for being "dangerous," that is not a basis for killing people. Self-defense (individually or collectively) is the only legal basis for war - and that does not include preventing hostile states from hypothetically obtaining the capacity to engage in preposterous attack scenarios that would never happen in the real world.

Now, when you say "40,000 illegal combatants," are you talking about Iraqis fighting an illegal invasion and occupation of their country? If some foreign maniac invaded and occupied your community because he felt the US was too dangerous to let obtain one of the myriad weapons our military is working on, and his troops rounded up and tortured half the men in your town as "suspected insurgents," swiss-cheesing anyone who resisted with machine guns and AC-130 gatlings, are you saying you would put on a uniform, identify yourself plainly, and die fair and square, all glorious-like? I wouldn't doubt you might actually believe that, given your mind-numbing lack of understanding of other human beings, not to mention rather loose grip on reality.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Labrocca said:
So they can't call you unamerican but you can slur them as warmongers?

Well, thats not quite the fact.

They CALLED me unamerican, before I even spoke, since they marginalized everyone who "thought" as I do, as UnAmerican.

I called them Warmongers after the fact, and as a "response" to their unwarranted and unnecessary insults.

I am a "give what I get" type of guy, but your point was taken, and I will keep it in mind for my future posts. ;)

[Easy90]

Never met someone like you who claimed he was American.


People like me don't have to. Someone once asked me why conservatives are so obsessed with our national symbols, and my answer was this: They wrap themselves in the flag, because if they didn't people would mistake them for our enemies. And I say "mistake" only out of fairness to the minority among them who aren't seeking some form of violent tyranny.


But then, I tend to travel in more "sane" circles I think.


Stop traveling in circles and maybe you'll get somewhere.


As for your clap trap about our military not being "on our side" you're just nuts.


Well, I apologize if reality doesn't conform to what you were taught by Rambo films, but however traumatic that realization may be for some people, the military is not there to protect you. It's an institution whose nature, like all others, arises from how it functions, and the way it functions is that (i)officers retire to work for contractors, or move back and forth between Pentagon and private sector positions, making it a poor career move to say or do anything that might decrease the need for contracts (i.e., do their jobs); (ii)contractors contribute money to politicians who favor war - the best circumstance for their bottom line; (iii)those invested in said contractors will overwhelmingly contribute to and vote for those politicians; and (iv)their opponents don't dare criticize them for overspending on the military, because plenty of people will be dumb enough to believe they're "unpatriotic." Net result: Perpetual war; perpetually increasing funding for war, perpetually increasing financial support for politicians who support war, and civilian and military leaders who must look under every rock and behind every tree for excuses to kill. They are not on our side, uniforms are not signifiers of integrity, and war is not the default state of a free society. Grow up, sonny.


Where did you learn all that about what the military does, and who they are... Just curious. As one who needs to "grow up" and learn about what the military really is and does, I just wonder where I missed all this good info. I always had a much more positive image of the military...and considered the people in it to be among the finest in the nation. You seem to believe they're all lowlifes. Do you know many people who've served?

"I just told you the specific crime: Waging an aggressive war."

So you think wars should not be waged "aggressively?" Don't you mean, waging an "unjustified" war? Most of your contemporaries are a little more literate. How old are you, sonny?

[Wndrtch]

The smart ass response was knee-jerk, the addition of the reasoning was why I edited it.

I don't know why I edited it however, you didn't grasp the reason in the first posts, so why should the second or third make it any clearer?

Point one: The city can't afford it right now.
Point two: The infrastructure can't afford it right now.
Point three: The people don't support the idea.
Point four: Its an additional source of friction between a populace and a government that are largely at odds on most issues currently.


As if our city doesn't give enough to the military, investigate how many from Ohio died in this and the last few wars chief, and then look at how many bases there are here, and near here.[hr]By the way, Detroit Michigan, a few miles north of Toledo, Ohio, has a virtual ghost-town going on in some areas, which would far more suit the needs of the military training they were performing.

Never mind that though, that might actually make sense.


Ok, look. The Residents of Toledo have the right to reject the Marines from practicing in their back-yards. I wouldn't, but hey, that's me. I can subject myself to being out-voted and can live with that. However, if the Mayor wasn't such a political hack, he would have simply contacted the Marines after the last time, and asked them to call the Govenor to find a more suitible veniew, or at least a more freindly one.

[apdst]

Troubadour,

It's this simple: no one, other than the Libbos, have complained one iota about The US invading Iraq. Not a single Muslim/Arab/ME nation has made the first attempt to protest our action, in any way. Wanna know what that tells us? It tells us that we did what everyone else wanted to do, but just didn't have the balls to do.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Wndrtch said:
Ok, look. The Residents of Toledo have the right to reject the Marines from practicing in their back-yards.

Really, thanks for recognizing that right, finally, which we have recognized all along.

Wndrtch said:
I wouldn't, but hey, that's me.

As we all do, you have a right to an opinion. I think you should file a request with the defense department, to see if they can have some training done on YOUR land then.

Wndrtch said:
I can subject myself to being out-voted and can live with that.

I can too, except when the vote is over restriction or granting something the elected reps, the government, or the people don't have a right to be voting on in the first place.

Wndrtch said:
However, if the Mayor wasn't such a political hack, he would have simply contacted the Marines after the last time, and asked them to call the Govenor to find a more suitible veniew, or at least a more freindly one.

And by the same token, the Marines commanding officers could have "observed", by opening their eyes and ears to all going on around them, the problems they had here last time they came, and requested a different place to train. Isn't their motto "improvise, adapt, overcome"? I guess simple respect for states rights and citizens rights is too much to adapt to?

The blame here lies on a bad mayor, and a negligent Marine training regimen plan, fairly equally from my perspective.

APDST said:
It's this simple: no one, other than the Libbos, have complained one iota about The US invading Iraq.

Are you ignorant, blind or just totally blindfolded?

If you truly believe that what you just said is true, you either live in denial, or see the world through a very, very thick set of rose colored lenses. :shame:

APDST said:
Not a single Muslim/Arab/ME nation has made the first attempt to protest our action, in any way.

And we know governments ALWAYS accurately reflect the sentiment of their citizens, correct?!? (are you serious, or is this comedy??)

APDST said:
Wanna know what that tells us? It tells us that we did what everyone else wanted to do, but just didn't have the balls to do.

Nevermind the failure to declare war, follow the Constitution, or observe the will of the people as REPRESENTATIVES are REQUIRED to do to befit the title.

Your hypocrisy is obvious, and should be embarassing by now.
Is you blind patriotism, or blind faith in government affected by serious blows to your integrity? :ponder:

[apdst]

Quote:
APDST said:
It's this simple: no one, other than the Libbos, have complained one iota about The US invading Iraq.

Are you ignorant, blind or just totally blindfolded?

If you truly believe that what you just said is true, you either live in denial, or see the world through a very, very thick set of rose colored lenses.

Post some examples for us.


Nevermind the failure to declare war, follow the Constitution, or observe the will of the people as REPRESENTATIVES are REQUIRED to do to befit the title.

Your hypocrisy is obvious, and should be embarassing by now.
Is you blind patriotism, or blind faith in government affected by serious blows to your integrity?

Isn't it easy to attack someone and never support your comments with facts?

[Osborn F. Enready]

APDST said:
Post some examples for us.

I would think you would have provided examples of your ludicrous statement which compelled me to answer, before demanding evidence of my COUNTER argument.

Isn't that how debate works?

First you put forth an allegation supported by facts, and then I put forth counter argument with supporting facts.

You show me some facts of your ridiculous assertion, and I will show you some obvious facts of mine, deal?

Start when you're ready, I will answer as soon as time allows.

APDST said:
Isn't it easy to attack someone and never support your comments with facts?

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about your entire argument so far.

Could you be nice, and point out something in this thread that you consider a fact that you have provided?

As I said before, I give what I get.

So far, you are giving lazy, subjective "assertions", so I have countered with the same.

Raise the bar, bring in some facts, make a debate, and I will match you. :thumbsup:

[apdst]

I would think you would have provided examples of your ludicrous statement which compelled me to answer, before demanding evidence of my COUNTER argument.

Isn't that how debate works?

Could you do me a huge favor and show me how to prove something doesn't exist? Thank you.

[Easy90]

Summary, paraphrasing:

Adpst: "No one but libbos are complaining about Iraq."

Osborn: "You're blind! That's ludicrous! You live in a tree! You should be embarrassed! You're blind patriotism is showing!"

Adpst: "Give me some examples that prove me wrong!"

Osborn: "I have given facts, (aka ad-hominem insults) and you just made a statement! (that nobody but libbos object to Iraq) Prove what you said and get back to me...that's how a debate works!"

[PatrickHenry]

See, here's the essential disconnect:

Conservative extremists use the word "lib" or in schoolyardese, "Libbos."

And they mean by it, anyone who opposes their positions (which are spoonfed to them by their own organs of disinformation, well known to all).

But various of their positions are opposed from DIFFERENT directions.

Lib-ERALS and Lib-ERTARIANS are two quite differently striped tigers.

But we generally BOTH oppose excessive foreign adventurism. The liberals want the money for domestic programs, while the libertarians want reduced spending.

To label us both libs is just ignorant.

Back on topic...If Toledo's citizens really want the USMC playing wargames on their downtown streets, I am sure they will make it known to their mayor who will need to take that into consideration as an elected politician. That's the way grassroots democracy works. I am sure we can all agree on democracy...

[Questerr]

Baghdad isn't in ruins. Sorry.


Coming from the guy that's never been there. I've been and yes it is. I'll post some pictures later on tonight that I took while I was there.

You can lie about crap like this with people who don't know better but trying to pull the wool over the eyes of an OIF vet is probably something you don't want to try in the future.


Obviously you don't live in The USA. Come to Louisiana, I'll show you some potholes in which to implace IEDs


I live in Texas. And yeah, I guess Louisiana is close enough to being a war zone that it would make for good training.

[Pookie]

I've never had a problem with the military practicing around here. We get urban trainees, airborne trainees, you name it. They love the mountains! And one time, when the reserves were doing their Reforger thing in Germany, a tank track snapped and the tank got stuck in my backyard!
So I had to come up with coffee and sandwiches for a whole herd of troops, LOL. I sure didn't mind.
Purrs,
Pookie

[Easy90]

I've never had a problem with the military practicing around here. We get urban trainees, airborne trainees, you name it. They love the mountains! And one time, when the reserves were doing their Reforger thing in Germany, a tank track snapped and the tank got stuck in my backyard!
So I had to come up with coffee and sandwiches for a whole herd of troops, LOL. I sure didn't mind.
Purrs,
Pookie


I am sure some of our anti-military friends here are amazed you weren't raped and pillaged....and condemn you for supporting the evil killers of babies as you did. LOL! Thanks for proving them (the anti-Americans) to be the morons they are.

[Elrathin]

Hey Easy90, I've been checking the news but haven't seen the military announce all the new properties they have to train on. AFterall, you guys said you would volunteer yours so have you written to the government yet? Or was it just all talk and no action like most conservative rhetoric?

[PatrickHenry]

I am sure some of our anti-military friends here are amazed you weren't raped and pillaged....and condemn you for supporting the evil killers of babies as you did. LOL! Thanks for proving them (the anti-Americans) to be the morons they are.
This rhetoric of yours is a problem, Easy90.

Using derogatory terms for members you disagree with does nothing to further the debate!

And most of us are well aware that US military is by and large composed of our sons and daughters, not evildoers.

Doesn't mean we like the thought of military exercises in our city centers.

Had I been in Pookie's situation, I would have been friendly, too.

But "training" in US urban sites has potential as a psyop. It could easily be conditioning for the purpose of making us citizens used to seeing camo-clad rifle-toting warriors in our neighborhoods. That is a characteristic of third world nations like Guatemala, never a fixture of the USA.

You don't have to be "anti-military" to be uncomfortable with soldiers on your city streets in large numbers.

[Easy90]

Not so enamored with your rhetoric either Patrick. Nor did I care for the rhetoric when some of your lib friends suggested the military was likely to rape female enlistees...Say, wasn't that you? The only people who would find MY rhetoric a problem would be people who call our military rapists and baby killers. If that applies to you...then I really don't mind it being a problem for ya. If you're upset because I said "the anti-Americans" are morons...well again, you have to include your own self in that category to take offense. In that case, sorry...you're stuck with it.

As for:
"You don't have to be "anti-military" to be uncomfortable with soldiers on your city streets in large numbers." (Patrick Henry)

Yeah, actually, if it's for their training and America's benefit...ya do.

[PatrickHenry]

Not so enamored with your rhetoric either Patrick. Nor did I care for the rhetoric when some of your lib friends suggested the military was likely to rape female enlistees...Say, wasn't that you? The only people who would find MY rhetoric a problem would be people who call our military rapists and baby killers. If that applies to you...then I really don't mind it being a problem for ya. If you're upset because I said "the anti-Americans" are morons...well again, you have to include your own self in that category to take offense. In that case, sorry...you're stuck with it.

You don't have to be "anti-military" to be uncomfortable with soldiers on your city streets in large numbers. (Patrick Henry)

Yeah, actually, if it's for their training and America's benefit...ya do.
Suppose I am antiAmerican.
I haven't called you a moron, Easy90. And that is against the rulez for everyone.

As to rape in the military, why would you defend that? It is a well known phenomenon that should be condemned by honorable men. Sadly, it is a cause for coverup by command. I won't link the stories here, to avoid going off topic, but it is a fact that US soldiers are raping each other.

[Elrathin]

As to rape in the military, why would you defend that? It is a well known phenomenon that should be condemned by honorable men. Sadly, it is a cause for coverup by command. I won't link the stories here, to avoid going off topic, but it is a fact that US soldiers are raping each other.


PH, yes, rape does happen in the military. Are there cases that there is cover up? Absolutely, however, I can also testify that there are many cases that they aren't. While I was stationed in Korea, there were 4 rapes within our Brigade alone. There was no cover-up and there was harsh sentences given to those found guilty and in the cases we had, all 4 were found guilty.

Now, let me tell you this. In all the rape cases that I knew about and heard about, guess how many made the news in the U.S.? None, unless it was a soldier that raped a civilian (as in the cases that were shown in Japan). None of the soldier-soldier rapes made the media. None of the punishments given made the media, yet they happen.

So please don't judge cover-ups as being the norm just because they make the news because there are many many cases that are tried and there are convictions in the military that never make the media.

[PatrickHenry]

I refuse to go off-topic on this.

But coverups are not rare.

[cronic]

I am sure some of our anti-military friends here are amazed you weren't raped and pillaged....and condemn you for supporting the evil killers of babies as you did. LOL! Thanks for proving them (the anti-Americans) to be the morons they are.

"Raped and Pillaged".. isn't that a little much?.. "Thank you for proving the Anti - Americans to be the morons they are"..wow, Just a little dramatic wouldn't ya say friend?.. Do you have that much hate for some people here that you go that far in your sarcasm?


"You don't have to be "anti-military" to be uncomfortable with soldiers on your city streets in large numbers.


Yeah, actually, if it's for their training and America's benefit...ya do.

I'm all for training of our Military.. Some of us believe that some places would be better then others for this training to take place. Because we don't believe it would be good to train in the city streets of Toledo.. we are now labeled Anti - Military and American Morons.

Now, what PH says sounds pretty sane and intelligent if you ask me.. It also sounds damn American for the reason that here in the USA we have the given right to have, hold, and express our opinions. But we don't or shouldn't have the right to put down or call names at people we disagree with. I think its been expressed by a few more as well in here that they feel the same way.. we all are not Anti - Military and I doubt anyone is for that matter! Osborne himself was a military man.. and he feels that way to..So is he now Anti - Military? No, instead he is a person with reservations about the military coming in the city where he lives and doing their exercises..
I thought I had some good valid points as to why I thought it wasn't a good idea.. I know he had some even better ones.. he was actually there last year and seen it.. Was you? I'm not going to put words in other peoples mouth.. I just say it because its already been said.. I repeat it only because I hope that you can see it doesn't matter what age a person is, or if they were in the military or not.. female or male..Republican or Democrat, Conservative or Liberal. Anyone can feel that way yet still not be anti - military or any less of an American. Certainly not a moron! Why persist in believing automatically someone is less of an American, and they are Anti- Military if they do not wish for soldiers to be on their personal property doing training exercises..

For what its worth Easy.. I myself, am glad we have a military, I myself, don't think of our military as rapists or baby killers. I also, like pookie.. would have done the same thing she did...Well.. coffee yes.. as far as sandwiches.. I think I would have taken an easier way out.. like the local donut shop..haha.. My point is there is no need to call everyone that doesn't support troops in there city streets practicing war maneuvers, Anti - Military or Un-American Morons man.. get a grip!

[PatrickHenry]

http://www.infowars.com/?p=172
Police State 2000

[Wndrtch]

But we don't or shouldn't have the right to put down or call names at people we disagree with.

Why? Isn't that an expression of opinion as well?

If I call you a moron because of a moronic statement you make, isn't that just my opinion too? You may not like me afterwards, but that's your option, and you are free not to.

For that matter, Pat can call me a baby killer because I support our military, and he has a right to that.

When dealing with opinionated people in discussion forums, I find it always helpful to remember the advice my Momma gave me when I was a little tyke.

"Stick and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me"

Remember, words only have as much power as you allow them to have.

[cronic]

I appreciate your words of wisdom Wndrtch and sure, I will agree with you on the sticks and stones.. I'm glad you pointed that out to me.. thank you again for the lesson your momma taught ya! I was merely trying to give advice as to how the forum itself might run smoother..Apparently you didn't see that

[PatrickHenry]

I did not call anyone a baby killer and there is a rule against rudely characterizing other members.

You may have a "right" to do so under the free speech provisions of the First Amendment, but this private forum will bounce you for doing it. So I urge the members to resist the temptation.

If you think someone said something "moronic" don't call them a moron, instead show the flaw in their logic. That's the essence of debate. Flaming will eventually get you banned.

[Easy90]

Thanks for the warning Pat...Now here's one right back atcha! For the record...I consider anyone who's an anti-American...who lives in America...to be moronic. I didn't specify you, or anyone in particular on this board by name partner..but for sure, if you think it applies to you, then that's just tough. And I think you DID in fact, infer that Marines are rapists. Right? That (IMHO) should get you banned, as there are several Marines who partake of this board...and that's not only anti-American...but flaming of the highest order.

[PatrickHenry]

I said that maybe some of the girls who don't join the USMC won't be raped... by their comrades in arms.

You think that's worthy of having me bounced?

That's flaming? Take it up with the management.

But we're getting off topic from the Toledo training. I view the military attempting to train in US urban areas as a probing psyop type of thing to test how the public reacts to a heavy military presence. Predictably, some of us don't like it, while others worship at the culo of Uncle Sam's military.

[Easy90]

I said that maybe some of the girls who don't join the USMC won't be raped... by their comrades in arms.

You think that's worthy of having me bounced?


I think that is extremely "offensive rhetoric." However, I wouldn't REALLY want to see you get bounced for illustrating my point. I think you're a fitting example of the kind of mentality that is endemic in the radical left. That you would "have a problem" with my rhetorical claim that in general, people who call our service people rapists and baby killers are idiots, is even more evidence that my contention about Bush Derangement Syndrome being epidemic amongst a certain segment of the population. :madlaugh:

[lily]

fewer months of what?

Training.....what do you think.........but then I guess I wasn't specific.......so it could also mean rests between re-deployment.......but let's go with what I meant...........training. (http://boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/08/19/army_cuts_time_spent_on_training/)

Army cuts time spent on training
Aims to bolster front lines quickly
By Bryan Bender, Globe Staff | August 19, 2007

FORT MONROE, Va. -- The US Army, struggling to cope with stepped-up
operations and extended deployments of its soldiers to Iraq, has shortened
the duration of several of its bedrock training courses so that troops can
return to fighting units on the front lines more quickly, according to
senior training officials.


One training course that is considered the "first step" in educating newly
minted sergeants -- the noncommissioned officers considered the backbone of
Army units -- has been cut in half to 15 days. Meanwhile, an intensive
program designed to prepare young officers for advanced leadership has been
compressed from eight months to less than five months so that the Army can
fill positions in constant demand from commanders in the Middle East.

Cargo trucks don't come with armor, tanks and apc's do.


Cargo trucks??? Who's talking about cargo trucks? (http://www.detnews.com/2004/project/0407/13/a06-209336.htm)

Desperate soldiers attach homemade armor
Nonmilitary kits spark Army to rush own modifications

By Lisa Zagaroli / Detroit News Washington Bureau


The standard Humvee was designed to be able to traverse 40-degree slopes, be
dropped out of a helicopter and submerged in 5 feet of salt water.

But it can't stop bullets or shrapnel from explosives.

The problems with the Humvee are well illustrated in Iraq, where U.S.
soldiers have been killed and maimed by roadside explosives.

Because the Army didn't buy enough armored vehicles needed in a war like the
one in Iraq, that very lack of combat survivability put soldiers in jeopardy
in another way. Troops began adding homemade armor, sandbags and other
ballistic protection that could degrade the performance of vehicles never
built to carry that kind of weight, rendering them more prone to accidents.

About 15,000 Humvees are in Iraq, carrying troops, emergency equipment,
shelter and cargo.

The Army has spent the last few months rushing an "up-armored" version of
the Humvee into the war zone, but some soldiers felt they had to take
matters into their own hands.

The U.S. Army Reserves' 428th Transportation Company out of Jefferson City,
Mo., for example, got contributions from local businesses to buy 13,000
pounds of 1/4-inch steel that it took with the troops to Iraq earlier this
year to pad their canvas Humvees and 5-ton trucks.

"Our armor has helped to protect against shrapnel," Maj. Keith Porter of the
428th said from Iraq in an e-mail exchange with The Detroit News. "All of
the armor was installed. In fact, we installed additional armor on some
vehicles."

Spc. Garett L. Reppenhagen, of Grand Junction, Colo., 29, a reconnaissance
scout stationed in Iraq with the 2nd Battalion of the 63rd Armor Regiment,
3rd Brigade, 1st Infantry Division, was worried about riding in vehicles
without armor.

"I was scared to death when they told us we would have to bring our old
Humvees from the rear to war," Reppenhagen said in an e-mail to The Detroit
News from Ba'Qubah. "It took two months just to get the armor add-ons. We
started with the sandbags. Now we have Kevlar blankets in most of our rides.
We have some with just sandbags still."


Our troops went onto the battlefield equiped better than any other American army in history.

http://www.newstribune.com/articles/2004/04/04/features/0404040051.txt (Yep.......even if they have to buy it themselves.

Despite U.S. promise, soldiers in Iraq still buying their own body armor

Soldiers headed for Iraq are still buying their own body armor -- and in
many cases, their families are buying it for them -- despite assurances from
the military that the gear will be in hand before they're in harm's way.

Body armor distributors have received steady inquiries from soldiers and
families about purchasing the gear, which can cost several thousand dollars.
Though the military has advised them not to rely on third-party suppliers,
many soldiers say they want it before they deploy.

Last October, it was reported that nearly one-quarter of American troops
serving in Iraq did not have ceramic plated body armor, which can stop
bullets fired from assault rifles and shrapnel.

The military says the shortfall is over and soldiers who do not yet have the
armor soon will. But many want to avoid the risk.

"What we hear from soldiers is that they are told that they are going to get
body armor just before they leave or just after they get there. But they
don't want to take a chance," said Nick Taylor, owner of Bulletproofme.com,
an online distributor of body armor in Austin, Texas.

At least they were landing on a artillery riddled beach in plywood boats. Or, crossing a river, under fire, in rubber boats using 2x4's for paddles. Or, would you rather we go back to those times?

Nope......unlike you I want our men and women to be well equipped, and not come home in pieces, brain damaged or worse in a body bag.......speaking of which, while I'm on my off topic rant....don't you think some of those parents would like the news to show their sons and daughters being honored when their coffins come home, instead of being hidden away? I think if Americans saw that......they'd be more up in arms than they already are.



And if they thought that, they would be stupid.

..........and now back on topic. You think people would be stupid if they saw a bunch of marines in full combat mode, in the middle of the city doing war maneuvers? What has this country come to? You are really sitting behind your computer typing that people driving by wouldn't be shocked and scared?

Okey dokey then.

[apdst]

Ok, NCOES has been shortened? So what? That means that NCO's will get more pratical experience--which is more valuable anyway--vice sitting in a clasroom listening to the principles of leadership and leadership styles for hours on end. Do you realize how many classroom hours are spent learning about paperwork? That's probably the part they shaved off the course duration and good riddance. I felt like that part of PLDC, B-NCOC, A-NCOC and The 1st Seargent's Course was a friggin waste of my time, anyway. By the time I got to ANOC, it was all the same ole shit, anyway. BTW, your article got some facts wrong. Seargents first class don't go to A-NCOC. A staff seargent has to complete A-NCOC, before he/she is promoted to seargent first class. NCOES makes up an enlisted man's promotion points. When I was in, NCOES counted for 30 points, which couldn't be substetuted. I don't know what it is now. That's ok, they're just reporters, we can't expect them to actually know a damn thing about the service.

Ultimately, though, training courses are shortened, during a war. Basic training was only two weeks, during WW2. It's obvious that basic training and MOS training is still to the same high standard that it has been for many years in out military.

Cargo trucks??? Who's talking about cargo trucks?

Click on your link and you'll see that there is a picture of a HMMV--Highy Mobile Mechanized Vehicle--i.e. a 1 1/4 ton cargo truck. They're not armored, because they were never meant to be used as combat vehicles.

Nope......unlike you I want our men and women to be well equipped, and not come home in pieces, brain damaged or worse in a body bag

I'm going to ignore this comment, this time. Next time, I won't be so polite.

don't you think some of those parents would like the news to show their sons and daughters being honored when their coffins come home, instead of being hidden away?

I'm even more ceratin that those parents wouldn't want their sons and daughters to be used as a political spectacle, which is exactly what would happen, if they were paraded out in public.

[Cobra]

Booting Marines lands mayor in crossfire

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080213/ap_on_re_us/marines_booted;_ylt=Au_B6i1w3.DlXdiii6Sq4nBvzwcF

TOLEDO, Ohio - Turning away a squad of Marine Corps reservists planning a weekend of training downtown has put the city's mayor in the crossfire of veterans.

Even some supporters wonder what he was thinking.

Mayor Carty Finkbeiner told the Marines, based in Grand Rapids, Mich., to turn around when they hit town Friday, saying he didn't want them scaring unsuspecting visitors and office workers.

City Council members have sent an apology to the Marines, and the local visitors bureau offered the unit's 200 members a free hotel stay, restaurant gift certificates and a visit to the zoo.

"I'm shaking I'm so upset," said Ron Hernandez, a former Marine who served in Vietnam. "It's a slap in the face."

The mayor said he didn't mean to inconvenience the unit, which had to cancel the exercise and return home.

Yet Finkbeiner — a three-term mayor whose history of gaffes includes considering moving deaf people near the airport to solve noise complaints — said if the Marines try to come downtown, he'll close the door in their faces again.

The mayor said he didn't know the city's police department had approved the latest urban warfare training until a few hours before the Marines arrived. Police sent out a news release to the media three days before the Marines arrived, but no one had alerted business owners or residents downtown.

A similar training exercise two years ago caught people off guard when they saw soldiers in camouflage running down sidewalks, crouching behind buildings and aiming their weapons, Finkbeiner said.

Not everyone thinks his stand against the Marines' plan to simulate firefights and ambushes and fire blank ammunition downtown was a mistake.

"This isn't about being for or against our military," said Jan Moore, a lifelong resident. "This is about avoiding potential danger."

She and her husband were downtown three years ago during another training exercise when a soldier in fatigues sprinted past their car with his gun drawn. Other soldiers then surrounded a building, she said.

"We didn't know what the heck was going on," she said. "My mind was going crazy."

Five minutes of panic passed before they figured out the city wasn't under siege. "Our first thought wasn't that this was just training," she said.

Maj. Dan Whisnant, commander of 1st Battalion, 24th Marines, said the training is vital to his troops, who were deployed to Iraq twice in the past two years. They've trained in the city four times since 2004.

Finkbeiner's string of memorable missteps goes back to 1994 when he was first elected mayor of the state's fourth-largest city, whose most famous soldier — Cpl. Max Klinger — was portrayed by Toledo native Jamie Farr on television's "M-A-S-H."

Finkbeiner once settled a lawsuit against the city with a former employee who accused him of hitting her with a mug. He wound up offering a tearful apology on the misguided proposal to put deaf residents near the airport. And when he asked for a boycott of a pizza chain because he said it didn't support the city, stores responded by offering "Crazy Carty Bread."

The dustup with the Marines has had bloggers and talk show hosts nationwide ripping Finkbeiner, who insisted he's not unpatriotic and called anyone questioning his loyalty a "baboon." He also offered to allow the Marines to return for training, but not downtown.

None of that appeased veterans who flooded city offices with complaints, some saying they'd never set foot in the city again.

"The timing of this was horrible, to do it when they got here," said Jerry Knapp, a former Marine whose son is serving in Iraq.

Another former Marine, City Councilman D. Michael Collins, said the mayor's banishment of the troops has given the city "an image that is not accurate or fair."

Collins doesn't think Finkbeiner meant any disrespect toward the Marines. He said the city should have told downtown business owners and residents about the training and let it continue.

"The mayor was in a bad situation," Collins said. "He was surprised there was going to be a military operation."

[apdst]

I refuse to go off-topic on this.

But coverups are not rare.

I spent 12 years in Reagan's, Bush Sr's and Clinton's Army and never saw a single coverup. While there I saw one soldier get into an accident that resulted in the death of a German National. He fried. He was convicted of negligent homicide and sentenced to three years at the Manheim Jail, then was cashiered out of the service with a dishonorable discharge, based on conduct unbecoming.

One soldier in Korea date raped a female airman. In The Army date rape is considered the same thing as aggrevated rape and prosecuted accordingly. He was sentenced to 20 years at Schofield Barracks.

A soldier decapatated another soldier, in a phone booth just off post, that was fucking his wife. He got life.

When I was at Ft. Hood, one of the soldiers in my platoon threatened to kill one of his fellow soldiers. That constituted a real and imminent threat, so he was given a field grade Article 15, being reduced one pay grade and forfiture of one months pay and fifteen days of extra duty. I mean, he got the whole nine yards. Two months later, he assualted that same soldier with his weapon, by butt-stroking him in the head, while we were in the field. Since the threat was properly documented, he was instantly charged, not with assault, but with attempted murder. I think he plea bargained and got 15 years.

One of my brothers was an MP. He and I were stationed at Ft. Polk at the same time for about eighteen months. His family and mine lived in the same post housing facility. He called one night and asked me to go outside and see if I saw a disturbance. I did so and saw a group that was gathered on the sidewalk looking at something on the ground. I walked over to find out that it was a baby, no more than six months old. Turns out that a male dependent had freaked out because the baby wouldn't stop crying and threw the baby off the third floor balcony, after bouncing the kid off the ceiling a half dozen times. I say a half dozen times, because my brother told me that there were six blood splatters on the ceiling. He fried.

PH, I don't know what military you served in, but the one I served in would send a soldier's ass to prison in a heart beat. Hell, adultry is an Article 15 offense, in The Army.

[PatrickHenry]

I am pleased that offenders have been prosecuted for crimes in the services.

And I don't discount your experience.

But the evidence of coverups on soldiers raping a comrade is pretty well known.

Still off topic, but here's a few links: http://hometown.aol.com/milesfdn/myhomepage
~It is apparent that relatively few military personnel are prosecuted or administratively sanctioned on charges stemijng from domestic violence.-Initial Report, Department of Defense Task Force on Domestic Violence, 2001.
~Commander discretion plays a major role in determining the extent of impact, as well as servicemembers performance and amenability to treatment.-A Considerable Service, Domestic Violence Report, 2001.
Recent estimates suggest that sexual assault in the military is experienced by three percent of female servicemembers, according to a recent survey released by the Department of Defense.-Armed Forces 2002 Sexual Harassment Survey, 2004. An earlier study conducted by the Defense Manpower Center indicated that 6 percent of female respondents and 1 percent of male respondents were victims of actual or attempted rape.-Department of Defense Sexual Harassment Survey, 1995.
~The prevalence of adult sexual assault among female veterans has been estimated as high as 41%.-Prevalence of physical and sexual abuse in women veterans, Military Medicine, 1996; Factors associated with women's risk of rape in the military, Journal of Industrial Medicine, 2003; and Prevalence of military sexual assault, Interpersonal Violence, 2000.
~Thirty-seven percent of women who reported a rape or attempted rape had been raped more than once; fourteen percent of the victims reported having been gang raped.-Factors associated with women's risk of rape in the military, Journal of Industrial Medicine, 2003.

Here's one being prosecuted right now: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/11/ap/national/main3819475.shtml?source=search_story

[cronic]

A soldier decapatated another soldier, in a phone booth just off post, that was f_cking his wife. He got life.



Wow.. Not to make a funny here.. because thats all bad.. but.. a phone booth aye?.. thats original.. shoot, I would have looked for a car or a ditch even.. hell a hot tin roof of a building would have been more comfortable I bet. then again I never have been a fan of standing up..lol

[apdst]

Wow.. Not to make a funny here.. because thats all bad.. but.. a phone booth aye?.. thats original..

The live soldier called the dead soldier and asked him yo meet him, so they could work through the ordeal. The dead soldier went to the phone booth, near the meeting place, to call the live soldier and see where he was at. The live soldier ambushed the dead soldier, while he was on the phone. It was a set up from the git-go.

[cronic]

dang.. thats crazy.. and all over a peice of you know what.. 2 lives wasted .. bet that changed the girls way of thinking to.. I hope

[apdst]

PH,

I never saw anything that made me suspect a coverup. I'm sorry. I bet Elrathin would tell you the same thing.

In fact, I saw soldiers get prosecuted for almost nothing. In The Army, holding the door for a female soldier is considered sexual harrassment. That should give you some idea how The Army views offenses toward females.

I got wrote up for sexual harrassment, once. I was talking to two other guys, telling a story about a hunting trip, using very colorful language. Little did I know, that a female soldier was around the corner and down the hall. Next thing I knew, I was standing at the position of attention, in front of the battalion commander, explaining to him why I ignored that females soldier's rights. I insisted that I'd done no such thing. Then, he handed me a sworn statement, by her hand, almost quoting me, word for word. If I had known she was within earshot, I wouldn't have used that kind of language, because I knew, at that point of my service, how much trouble I could get into by using profane language in the presence of a female soldier. The fact that it was a private conversation, not knowing that a female soldier could hear what I was saying, didn't mean shit. It was only formal counseling and was removed from my file after 180 days, but that should give you an idea of how seriously the military takes offenses toward female service members.

When someone screams about a covered up sexual assault, or sexual harrassment, I bet my paycheck that there's waaaaaaay more to the story than what we're being told in the media. I mean, I've seen carreers flushed down the toilet over a single comment that a female too exception to. Honestly? It was almost rediculous how much trouble a male soldier could get into, when talking to a female, when I was in the service. I'm sure Elrathin can tell you the same thing.[hr] bet that changed the girls way of thinking to.. I hope

Probably not. I imagine she was post town trash. I bet she couldn't wait to find another soldier to support her ass so she could have more puppies.

[PatrickHenry]

I feel we are drifting off topic here, but this is an important issue about which I feel strongly. My daughter will not have my blessing to join the US military.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/17/60minutes/main674791.shtml
(CBS) Few problems have been more persistent or produced more bad news for the military than the issue of rape within its own ranks.

Allegations that not enough is being done to help victims or prosecute offenders have been raised from the service academies to the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan -- where hundreds of cases of sexual assault have been reported by women in uniform.

It was that revelation, plus pressure from Congress, that’s forced the Pentagon to once again examine sexual misconduct in the military – which has been done 18 times in the last 16 years. The result has been more recommendations and sweeping policy changes.

But there are plenty of skeptics, and one of them is Lt. Jennifer Dyer, who talks to Correspondent Steve Kroft in her first interview after accusing a fellow officer of rape.

"They’ve done nothing but lie to me and treat me like a criminal," says Dyer.

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld says that he will have zero tolerance when it comes to sexual assault in the military.

To that, Dyer says, "I don’t believe it. Zero tolerance would mean that I would not have been treated the way I’ve been treated."

When 60 Minutes first met Dyer, the Army was treating her like a criminal, threatening to arrest her for desertion. The eight-year veteran of the New Jersey National Guard had been AWOL for two months after refusing to return to Camp Shelby, Miss., where she says she was sexually assaulted by another lieutenant after a night of drinking with friends at the Officers Club.

"He raped you," asks Kroft.

"Yes," says Dyer.

"Is there any way he could have misinterpreted your intentions?" asks Kroft.

"I don't feel it's possible to misinterpret, 'No, don’t do this. Or stop.' Those are the words that I used again and again,” says Dyer.

Dyer says she reported the rape "within 10 to 15 minutes," and after she was taken to the emergency room to be examined, she was then sequestered for three days without access to a telephone.

She says her story was greeted with disbelief by military investigators and indifference from her command, which gave her only a two-week convalescent leave, then refused to extend it.

"They stated that two weeks was enough time to recover from such an incident," says Dyer. "I was told that if I didn't return on time, they would send MPs to my door and have me arrested."

Your own recollections aside, this is an investigation by an organization with greater reach than you.

And CBS is not the only observer to turn up huge whitewashes by the US military.

[apdst]

hundreds of cases of sexual assault have been reported by women in uniform.

Before you blow that out of proportion, you have to understand how the military defines, "sexual assault". The military's definition is far broader than the civilian definition.

[lily]

Probably not. I imagine she was post town trash. I bet she couldn't wait to find another soldier to support her ass so she could have more puppies.


I just "love" when a women is asking for it......don't you?

[just a grunt]

Probably not. I imagine she was post town trash. I bet she couldn't wait to find another soldier to support her ass so she could have more puppies.


I just "love" when a women is asking for it......don't you?


Most recent comment is off track. The woman was not injured in any way. Her lover was killed by her husband. Referring to her as post trash is deserved and appropriate. Making any comment about her late lover is not necessary.

[Wndrtch]

I did not call anyone a baby killer and there is a rule against rudely characterizing other members.

You may have a "right" to do so under the free speech provisions of the First Amendment, but this private forum will bounce you for doing it. So I urge the members to resist the temptation.

If you think someone said something "moronic" don't call them a moron, instead show the flaw in their logic. That's the essence of debate. Flaming will eventually get you banned.


You're right, Pat. Sorry for dragging you into this in this way. I just wanted to make a point with an extreme example (and you do fit the extreme view category with some of your opinions, IMHO). I could have done so without naming you. I guess given that you have stated your contempt for the military and those who serve in it, I assumed "baby-killer" was a view you held, seeing how you feel our soldiers are killing innocent people wantonly and purposely.

[Tessy]

hundreds of cases of sexual assault have been reported by women in uniform.

Before you blow that out of proportion, you have to understand how the military defines, "sexual assault". The military's definition is far broader than the civilian definition.


Like "That depends what the definition of 'is' is." ?

Lots of talk about "supporting the troops" in this thread. I support the troops about as much as I support a gang of retards shooting people at random on orders from their drug-lord leader. Oops! I just defined the US military. Seriously, anyone capable of being duped into serving in the US armed forces overseas (during the past 5 to 7 years) is by definition a moron and a retard.

I don't support criminals!

[Troubadour]

Where did you learn all that about what the military does, and who they are... Just curious.


Biographies, institutional histories, event histories, project histories, whistleblower accounts, etc. The Pentagon doesn't need to cover up most of the terrible things it does - people just never hear about it because they're not interested, so the news has no reason to report it, and the books that detail it are read mainly by academics. Every once in a while there will be some indignant news story about a minor scandal, and I just laugh at the surreality of it.


As one who needs to "grow up" and learn about what the military really is and does, I just wonder where I missed all this good info.


A good place to start would be a library. I'm sorry to say there's no Cliff's Notes for historical perspective - you just have to read everything, including books from people you strongly disagree with, and build a coherent understanding out of the multitude of perspectives.


I always had a much more positive image of the military...


It's the best image money can buy. And at nearly a billion per year just for recruitment, let alone day-to-day PR, I'd be pretty surprised if they didn't achieve the same results as McDonald's or better. Every once in a while a shard of reality will pierce the veil of fiction and they'll have to work overtime on damage control, but of course it's no contest: They staff their laughable internal review boards with institutional men who know the score, and give them microscopic budgets. If someone with a conscience leaks information to the press requiring a response, the response can then be "We are investigating." Many such "investigations" never involve meetings, depositions, subpoenas, or actual investigating of any kind - they simply begin with a piece of paper, end with a piece of paper, and both pieces of paper are classified until much, much later, when those responsible are safely retired.


and considered the people in it to be among the finest in the nation.


Of course you do. Few dare say otherwise, so by default the only people who ever address the character of the military are praising it.


You seem to believe they're all lowlifes.


They're nearly all irresponsible, but beyond that I make no statements about the individual members and speak only to the institution.


Do you know many people who've served?


Served whom?


So you think wars should not be waged "aggressively?"


You know the meaning of "aggressive war," as it was presented at the Nuremberg Tribunal. Being deliberately obtuse on a matter such as this is an insult to both the living and the dead.


Don't you mean, waging an "unjustified" war?


No, I mean aggressive war, as defined by the Nuremberg Tribunal.


Most of your contemporaries are a little more literate.


:madlaugh:


How old are you, sonny?


24, sir. :dork:

[Wndrtch]

Of course the vast majority of American young men and women are in the #0 camp and weren't fooled for long enough to ever consider joining in the first place.

They may not have chosen that life for themselves, but they generally have a deep respect for those who have.

By the way, that's a fact and not my opinion. It is supported by every statistic!

Then post a couple, with links to the survey questions and data.

[preservanation]

hundreds of cases of sexual assault have been reported by women in uniform.

Before you blow that out of proportion, you have to understand how the military defines, "sexual assault". The military's definition is far broader than the civilian definition.


Like "That depends what the definition of 'is' is." ?

Lots of talk about "supporting the troops" in this thread. I support the troops about as much as I support a gang of retards shooting people at random on orders from their drug-lord leader. Oops! I just defined the US military. Seriously, anyone capable of being duped into serving in the US armed forces overseas (during the past 5 to 7 years) is by definition a moron and a retard.

I don't support criminals!
Does this opinion of yours, that they are criminals, extend to all of the US Military?
Or do you have a particular gripe with some of them that you would call them such curious names?[hr]I'm really trying to understand where this kind of thinking comes from, Tessy, so bear with me.
What if someone joined 10 years ago and was deployed in the last 5-7 years, would you still hold them in such low regard?

[Tessy]

They may not have chosen that life for themselves, but they generally have a deep respect for those who have.



Nah, that only worked for awhile. Most people are smart enough to disrespect those who deserve disrespect and that's anyone joining the armed forces since VN.

No respect where no respect is due is the chant of today!

[preservanation]

They may not have chosen that life for themselves, but they generally have a deep respect for those who have.



Nah, that only worked for awhile. Most people are smart enough to disrespect those who deserve disrespect and that's anyone joining the armed forces since VN.

No respect where no respect is due is the chant of today!

This is a disturbing view you have of the US Military.
Do you support the prosecution of all US troops?

Also if I may be so bold, where did you get this attitude towards them, did someone tell you this or did you come to these conclusions on your own?

[Tessy]

hundreds of cases of sexual assault have been reported by women in uniform.

Before you blow that out of proportion, you have to understand how the military defines, "sexual assault". The military's definition is far broader than the civilian definition.


Like "That depends what the definition of 'is' is." ?

Lots of talk about "supporting the troops" in this thread. I support the troops about as much as I support a gang of retards shooting people at random on orders from their drug-lord leader. Oops! I just defined the US military. Seriously, anyone capable of being duped into serving in the US armed forces overseas (during the past 5 to 7 years) is by definition a moron and a retard.

I don't support criminals!
Does this opinion of yours, that they are criminals, extend to all of the US Military?
Or do you have a particular gripe with some of them that you would call them such curious names?[hr]I'm really trying to understand where this kind of thinking comes from, Tessy, so bear with me.
What if someone joined 10 years ago and was deployed in the last 5-7 years, would you still hold them in such low regard?


Yes of course. If you joined IBM under a 10 year contract and 5 years in you discovered they were key players in the holocaust and continue an active policy of promoting eugenics and you didn't quit and take whatever penalty might be unavoidable then you're just as guilty as they are! If there's books everywhere about it and it's the talk of the nation you additionally have little or no room to claim ignorance.

Hell yes. The idea of supporting the troops is a TV based idea of "political correctness" that has been loosing support ever since the Iraq invasion started. By now it's lost all justification except with the most ignorant and/or brainwashed. The entire idea of "supporting the troops" has morphed into BRING THEM HOME IMMEDIATELY which today with all that we now know is that only possible form of support that isn't just meaningless rhetoric or political maneuvering.

[preservanation]

Yes of course. If you joined IBM under a 10 year contract and 5 years in you discovered they were key players in the holocaust and continue an active policy of promoting eugenics and you didn't quit and take whatever penalty might be unavoidable then you're just as guilty as they are! If there's books everywhere about it and it's the talk of the nation you additionally have little or no room to claim ignorance.

Thank you for answering me honestly.
At least now I see where you stand.

I don't believe I'll try to change your mind, but just hurl expletives at you on occasion.
I think we can both live with that, don't you think?

[apdst]

The idea of supporting the troops is a TV based idea of "political correctness" that has been loosing support ever since the Iraq invasion started. By now it's lost all justification except with the most ignorant and/or brainwashed. The entire idea of "supporting the troops" has morphed into BRING THEM HOME IMMEDIATELY which today with all that we now know is that only possible form of support that isn't just meaningless rhetoric or political maneuvering

I love it when Liberals say what they really think...LMAO!!

[preservanation]

Unfreakin believable.
I bet this is taught in our gov run high schools and institutes of "higher learning".
No one just wakes up with this sort of hate, disinformation and disregard of history on their own.

[PatrickHenry]

Unfreakin believable.
I bet this is taught in our gov run high schools and institutes of "higher learning".
No one just wakes up with this sort of hate, disinformation and disregard of history on their own.
Wow!

That's actually the OPPOSITE of what is going on in highschools, IMO.

Hate and disinformation justifying US crimes is the norm in our government schools...

It is only the independent-minded who can shake the brainwashing.

[Tessy]

This is a disturbing view you have of the US Military.
Do you support the prosecution of all US troops?

Also if I may be so bold, where did you get this attitude towards them, did someone tell you this or did you come to these conclusions on your own?


It's not a disturbing view at all! It's quite normal! Only congress can declare a war and for good reason! Once in congress it is debated and the people have a say. We decide AS A NATION whether or not to go to war. Some dumb-ass signing up to grab a gun and blow away human beings without knowing ANYTHING about the situation, without proper debate and in a qualifiedly illegal military action on the word of a cocaine snorting, drunk driving, oil hoarding, butt-wipe grandson of a known nazi with a very long history of fraud, theft and corruption is indeed accusable. When they display that same kind of immorality, poor judgement, and bad behavior in theater they are indeed prosecutable! Though I would prosecute those at the top first and foremost. I believe there is a huge effort and ongoing movement with tens of millions of supporters in order to do just that! This idea is nothing new! It's been a credible argument in every undeclared war we've been in!

There was a very good reason men returning from VN were spat upon and called baby-killer! If you're going to spread nuclear waste over the face of a country and/or pick up a machine gun, mow down women, children, dogs, and men trying to defend their homes - you had better find out why you are doing it. You ARE responsible for your own actions! Just because the government allows you to do something does not make it right or remove your personal responsibility from the equation! You kill a man you better have a reason! You allow yourself to be put in a combat situation you better have a moral standing! Currently there are no reasons or moral standings for the killings in Iraq. If I were over there I would report to the brig immediately in protest of the illegal and immoral slaughter that is occurring. Nothing else is acceptable!

[lily]

There was a very good reason men returning from VN were spat upon and called baby-killer! If you're going to spread nuclear waste over the face of a country and/or pick up a machine gun, mow down women, children, dogs, and men trying to defend their homes - you had better find out why you are doing it.

I'd just like to dispell this rumor. (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/04/30/debunking_a_spitting_image/)

Debunking a spitting image
By Jerry Lembcke | April 30, 2005

STORIES ABOUT spat-upon Vietnam veterans are like mercury: Smash one and six
more appear. It's hard to say where they come from. For a book I wrote in
1998 I looked back to the time when the spit was supposedly flying, the late
1960s and early 1970s. I found nothing. No news reports or even claims that
someone was being spat on.



What I did find is that around 1980, scores of Vietnam-generation men were
saying they were greeted by spitters when they came home from Vietnam. There
is an element of urban legend in the stories in that their point of origin
in time and place is obscure, and, yet, they have very similar details. The
story told by the man who spat on Jane Fonda at a book signing in Kansas
City recently is typical. Michael Smith said he came back through Los
Angeles airport where ''people were lined up to spit on us."

Like many stories of the spat-upon veteran genre, Smith's lacks credulity.
GIs landed at military airbases, not civilian airports, and protesters could
not have gotten onto the bases and anywhere near deplaning troops. There may
have been exceptions, of course, but in those cases how would protesters
have known in advance that a plane was being diverted to a civilian site?
And even then, returnees would have been immediately bused to nearby
military installations and processed for reassignment or discharge.

The exaggerations in Smith's story are characteristic of those told by
others. ''Most Vietnam veterans were spat on when we came back," he said.
That's not true. A 1971 Harris poll conducted for the Veterans
Administration found over 90 percent of Vietnam veterans reporting a
friendly homecoming. Far from spitting on veterans, the antiwar movement
welcomed them into its ranks and thousands of veterans joined the opposition
to the war.

[cronic]

http://derekkline.com/dkpix/cartyfink.jpgThe mayor made the call and its over now.. if people don't like it.. they don't have to vote him into office next term

Just thought id get back on topic..lol
I forgot what thread this was.. I don't think the mayor of Toledo has been mentioned since page 3..

[preservanation]

When they (US soldiers[sic]) display that same kind of immorality, poor judgement, and bad behavior in theater they are indeed prosecutable! Ok...Got it.
Round them all up on the tarmac as they come home, and prosecute all of them.
Got it.There was a very good reason men returning from VN were spat upon and called baby-killer! If you're going to spread nuclear waste over the face of a country and/or pick up a machine gun, mow down women, children, dogs, and men trying to defend their homes -Wow, just wow.
Ignorance doesn't even come close to describing this.
Do you have any idea of the men and women throughout our history have fought and died for YOU?

Don't worry, they will continue to do so even as you spit on them, call them criminals and baby killers and attempt to imprison them for laying down their lives for you, your family, all Americans and the freedom of countless others all around the world.
They'll sign up, fight and die anyway...that is valor, honor, dedication and love for the Ideal of America that I fear you will never understand or possess.

It's Ok, sit back, enjoy your yogurt and keep hating them for it...unfortunately they are used to it.

[Elrathin]

There was a very good reason men returning from VN were spat upon and called baby-killer!


Sorry but this has got to be the most ridiculous excuse for barbarism I have heard in a long time.

There is NO good reason to spit on soldiers returning home that you have NO IDEA what they have done or been through.

You telling me that spitting on random soldiers somehow is correct is mind boggling to me.

[lily]

Wow, just wow.
Ignorance doesn't even come close to describing this.
Do you have any idea of the men and women throughout our history have fought and died for YOU?

Hmmmm.......I'm curious.......can you tell me exactly what the Iraqi war is doing for me?

[PatrickHenry]

Wow, just wow.
Ignorance doesn't even come close to describing this.
Do you have any idea of the men and women throughout our history have fought and died for YOU?

Hmmmm.......I'm curious.......can you tell me exactly what the Iraqi war is doing for me?


Hmm... I actually own some Exxon stock. Don't you?

Most profitable quarter ever for oil giants as Iraq's production is kept off the market, raising the value of ALL the other oil wells in the world!

Like KDKDK, I could gloat over my oil money...

[Osborn F. Enready]

The sick tragic reality is that those soldiers are fighting for people who have NO RIGHT to be fought for. They have FAILED in their duties to ensure government follows the rules concerning their deployment in a constituional manner. They have failed to investigate and fully vet all information that has been passed as "news" to the public. They have failed to impeach or remove those political officials who have consistently broken constitutional oaths and affirmations to uphold and protect not only the rights of citizens, but the Constitution of the United States.

The voluntary military is a benefit this populace no longer has earned, as it has not exercised its rights to maintain and control the engine of control over that military, nor have they held the militaries leaders to the same standard the leaders hold the military to.... constitutional integrity, and honoring a sworn contract.


Shame on the partisan sheeple Americans who "don't have time" to investigate facts, only to work and buy Chinese and Indian made crap to fill their homes and make their asses fatter as they do less and less physical work, while exploiting foreign laborers who have no rights, so the profits may go to their anti-individual rights governments, to build war machines for us to fight later, built with our money, our blood, our designs, our ideas, our material.

I am an ex-serviceman, I joined to fight a war I couldn't even get trained in time to see. Thank my lucky stars I didn't as I became a protestor to the actions after the fact once I learned the reality behind the "official story" the white house press room feeds to the major media.

I have never in my life been so disgusted by the political apathy and ignorance of my countrymen.

I am sorry for our letting you down uniformed military, I only wish my countrymen could step up to the plate with me and admit that supporting you is respecting your dedication and trust, not keeping you busy with unnecessary, unaffordable wars leaving your after service care lagging, and unaccounted for.

Some of us are working for accountability in government, to the same level that is expected of you.... its the only honorable thing to do.

[Elrathin]

Shame on the partisan sheeple Americans who "don't have time" to investigate facts, only to work and buy Chinese and Indian made crap to fill their homes and make their asses fatter as they do less and less physical work, while exploiting foreign laborers who have no rights, so the profits may go to their anti-individual rights governments, to build war machines for us to fight later, built with our money, our blood, our designs, our ideas, our material.


So you buy 100% American Osborn?

[Osborn F. Enready]

No, never said that either.

I would buy majority American if I could, but there aren't many American products in my price range anymore, and yes, I know why.

I support local business as much as possible, avoid box stores if possible, buy American when the product warrants it with the price increase, and work in any way I can to ensure and protect individual rights of Americans, regardless of race, sex or creed.

Still take my oath to defend the Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic quite seriously.

Also, I would love to see a home outfitted with only American made goods, but I don't think its possible, let alone reasonably priced. (not dirt cheap, just reasonable)

I do not shop at Wal-Mart, and I avoid Chinese and Indian products when possible.

[Elrathin]

Well you scorned people that buy Chinese and Indian made products, that is why I asked. You're right it isn't possible right now to buy 100% America, which is why I wondered why you said what you did.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Because Americans buy from countries such as China, India, who are directly ANTI-individual rights, and in the case of China, directly extort the labor of their people for government profit, to create a war machine we will likely face if the bi-partisan machine continues on its path.

People don't understand, or respect the relationship between their economic freedom, their political freedom, and their individual freedom.

That is sad, and even sadder, a necessary requirement for people who intend, or claim to govern themselves.

[Elrathin]

Because Americans buy from countries such as China, India, who are directly ANTI-individual rights, and in the case of China, directly extort the labor of their people for government profit, to create a war machine we will likely face if the bi-partisan machine continues on its path.

People don't understand, or respect the relationship between their economic freedom, their political freedom, and their individual freedom.

That is sad, and even sadder, a necessary requirement for people who intend, or claim to govern themselves.


Yes, but as you said, people don't always have a choice in that.

[Tessy]

There was a very good reason men returning from VN were spat upon and called baby-killer! If you're going to spread nuclear waste over the face of a country and/or pick up a machine gun, mow down women, children, dogs, and men trying to defend their homes - you had better find out why you are doing it.

I'd just like to dispell this rumor. (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/04/30/debunking_a_spitting_image/)

Debunking a spitting image
By Jerry Lembcke | April 30, 2005



OK, point taken. I saw it first hand myself in N.Y. but it might not have been as wide spread as I think.[hr]

There was a very good reason men returning from VN were spat upon and called baby-killer!


Sorry but this has got to be the most ridiculous excuse for barbarism I have heard in a long time.

There is NO good reason to spit on soldiers returning home that you have NO IDEA what they have done or been through.

You telling me that spitting on random soldiers somehow is correct is mind boggling to me.


Let's not take things out of context too much now. :P

I didn't say I condoned it or participated in it or that it even happened to me. I'm saying it (or that sentiment) wasn't prevalent without a reason! And I would say that volunteering to pick up a weapon and shoot people ILLEGALLY when you don't know sh*t about the reason for the conflict except the CRAP fed you over the idiot-box is indeed a good reason to have that sentiment held to about you![hr]
The voluntary military is a benefit this populace no longer has earned, as it has not exercised its rights to maintain and control the engine of control over that military, nor have they held the militaries leaders to the same standard the leaders hold the military to.... constitutional integrity, and honoring a sworn contract.


Oh right! Sure, glorify the ignorant fools that are dumb enough to believe what the TV tells them. Who are too lazy to look up anything. Who haven't bothered to study anything about the men in our government. Who have not spent 1 minute in any kind of meaningful debate questioning the tactics, legality or lack thereof of our preemptive invasion of a sovereign nation and the slaughter of close to 1 million people now.

Glorify them and belittle those who promote individualism and true freedom! Do it because the TV tells you to! Do it! For that exact thinking will be needed when the same mindless trigger-happy dumb-fu*ks start rounding you and I up for FEMA camp placement and/or extermination - which is what this thread started out being about! Troops practicing in your city... what for? Can't you guess? No no that's right you believe the government is and should be above the people - the troops are worthy and the people deserve to be trounced by them. Nice logic! I hope you go in the FEMA camps first so I can dance and make fun of you from outside the fence.

The worst kind of moron is not he who secures his own doom from his ignorance but he who in the process of doing so secures the doom of all around him.

At least I can agree that no one has been able to hold our leaders to task for the crimes they have committed! But to me that's happened for the same reasons someone would volunteer for US military service anytime after Nam really... but especially much after 2002.

[AlanC]

Have you ever considered anger management classes?

[Elrathin]

Let's not take things out of context too much now. :P

I didn't say I condoned it or participated in it or that it even happened to me. I'm saying it (or that sentiment) wasn't prevalent without a reason!


When people applied it to random soldiers, sorry that was uncalled for. So it was WITHOUT reason because many of those soldiers that were spat upon did nothing wrong.

[Tessy]

Have you ever considered anger management classes?


Hehehe, I'm not angry. It just seems that way because the words ring so true![hr]

Let's not take things out of context too much now. :P

I didn't say I condoned it or participated in it or that it even happened to me. I'm saying it (or that sentiment) wasn't prevalent without a reason!


When people applied it to random soldiers, sorry that was uncalled for. So it was WITHOUT reason because many of those soldiers that were spat upon did nothing wrong.



BZZZZT! Wrong answer! If you enlist in an organization that kills people illegally - and EVERY SINGLE WAR from WWII has been an illegal war!!! - I don't care if all you did was type at a typewriter, you are guilty! And you can take that to court!

[Elrathin]

BZZZZT! Wrong answer! If you enlist in an organization that kills people illegally - and EVERY SINGLE WAR from WWII has been an illegal war!!! - I don't care if all you did was type at a typewriter, you are guilty! And you can take that to court!


Well then you are going to have a hard time proving all the men and women that have served in the army Past and Present are all guilty. Good luck with that and I have no doubt you will lose such a suit.

Since no suit has ever been brought up I will say your claim is nothing but BS in that regard.

So if you are so sure of yourself, why don't you get a lawyer to bring about the lawsuit that proves EVERY SINGLE Member of the U.S. military past and present since WWII is guilty? If you can't do that, well actions speak louder than words and those words mean that your claim is BS.

[AlanC]

No, it seems that way because the words you leave here are so filled with irrational anger and bile directed at whole groups of individuals. That type of speech is usually what we associate with bigots. Irrational anger directed at whole groups in an attempt to both demean and margenalize the group.

Any truth in your words is obscured by such blind and broad application. When one attempts to classify anyone who wears the uniform of the United States military as a "moron" is flailing in the emotional winds of hyperbole. That is also a trait of the angry.

[Tessy]

BZZZZT! Wrong answer! If you enlist in an organization that kills people illegally - and EVERY SINGLE WAR from WWII has been an illegal war!!! - I don't care if all you did was type at a typewriter, you are guilty! And you can take that to court!


Well then you are going to have a hard time proving all the men and women that have served in the army Past and Present are all guilty. Good luck with that and I have no doubt you will lose such a suit.

Since no suit has ever been brought up I will say your claim is nothing but BS in that regard.


Actually 27 suites were attempted and all blocked. But like I said I not interested in suing grunts. As of Dec. 2007, 78% of Americans ARE however interested in suing or impeaching our 2 top leaders![hr]
No, it seems that way because the words you leave here are so filled with irrational anger and bile directed at whole groups of individuals. That type of speech is usually what we associate with bigots. Irrational anger directed at whole groups in an attempt to both demean and margenalize the group.

Any truth in your words is obscured by such blind and broad application. When one attempts to classify anyone who wears the uniform of the United States military as a "moron" is flailing in the emotional winds of hyperbole. That is also a trait of the angry.


Nah, it's just that the words ring too true. Like I said. You're establishing your own dementia by suggesting anything beyond that.

Think about it. The war is illegal. Congress admits it, anyone who can read knows it. The reasons given for the war are almost every single one a lie. Congress admits it, 86% or Americans say they know it. Now who but a moron would join up to fight knowing those things? And if they don't know it... they're morons for that! Either way you look at it if you joined voluntarily anytime after about mid 2002 --- YOU'RE A MORON!!!

Then actually, when you really examine it and study the situation this kind of war (illegal AND based on lies!) has really described every war since and including WWII. So I have to say... Most of them are morons as well... although there might be an excuse for people prior to Nam. You know: dumb country boy.. knows his numbers and his lettering but ain't read much... gullible.. ain't knowing in the ways of evil world banker types - and the whole society telling him it's an "honorable" thing to do. Heh! During and after Nam though... the whole country was tipped off. Anyone making that mistake after then... nope no excuse! They're a moron!

I will agree that it's a bit insulting to state the obvious about such morons - but about a kizillion percent less so than killing someone's son, daughter, mother, father, grandmother, or grandfather! So I think it needs to be said!

[preservanation]

AlanC Wrote:
No, it seems that way because the words you leave here are so filled with irrational anger and bile directed at whole groups of individuals. That type of speech is usually what we associate with bigots. Irrational anger directed at whole groups in an attempt to both demean and marginalize the group. You know: dumb country boy.. knows his numbers and his lettering but ain't read much... gullible.. Stepped right into that one.

AC...you nailed it!
HooooooBoy!!!

[Osborn F. Enready]

Tessy said:
Oh right! Sure, glorify the ignorant fools that are dumb enough to believe what the TV tells them.

Whoa, step back.

That applies to all people, not one specific group. Being fed information by a group of controlled sources does not constitute "being informed". It is being PARTIALLY informed, since there is an agenda behind that group of controlled sources.

You can't be lazy, and free, and FAR too many ATTEMPT TO RATIONALIZE their laziness by the form their lives have taken and has been conditioned in them, by the society that surrounds them. Its typical pack mentality..... "everyone else is doing about the same thing, so, I am no better, yet no worse than anyone else when push comes to shove" they claim. Well, complacency and apathy breeds ignorance, and due to our overtaken school system by government, government teaches and conditions kids to NOT turn that skepticism inward, toward the power structure, educational systems, etc.

Tessy said:
Who are too lazy to look up anything. Who haven't bothered to study anything about the men in our government. Who have not spent 1 minute in any kind of meaningful debate questioning the tactics, legality or lack thereof of our preemptive invasion of a sovereign nation and the slaughter of close to 1 million people now.

The Congress, the Senate, the Executive, the Judicial Branch, The media, etc, etc, etc.

There are people protesting everyday, and you see what it gets.... nothing.
There are people complaining everyday, and you see what it gets.... nothing.
There are people posting on the internet everyday, and you see what it gets.... nothing.

Peaceful protest only works if the government in power recognizes peace as a currency they accept. This same group is the group you accuse of using unjust government force, so what makes anyone think they would accept and recognize peaceful protest?

Ghandi learned this lesson, as did the fool in Tianamen Square who was squashed by the tank.

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."
http://www.potowmack.org/gandhi.html#arms


When the "bi-partisan monopoly" has stolen your election law oversight and creation, your ballot access, your district control, and all appointed seats of power as well as elected seats of power (through gerrymandering, fraud and coercion) almost all the way to local government in entireity, it is foolish to think standing outside a building shouting at the walls is going to do anything.

Tessy said:
Glorify them and belittle those who promote individualism and true freedom!

Are you saying individual don't have the freedom to join collectives by free will and voluntary conscent? Is not the military a free-will conscent choice until a draft is enacted?

I think your bias is showing Tessy, and its unappealing.

Tessy said:
Do it because the TV tells you to! Do it! For that exact thinking will be needed when the same mindless trigger-happy dumb-fu*ks start rounding you and I up for FEMA camp placement and/or extermination - which is what this thread started out being about!

Thats why I will never surrender, nor hesitate to rightfully exercise my individual right to keep and bear arms for self defense, against all enemies foreign and domestic. Individual rights protection starts and ends with the will YOU the individual have to exercise and maintain them against all unjust means to prevent it.

I am as anti-force as anyone but the pacifist or the anti-gunner, as I do retain understanding of why the 2nd amendment exists, and I will forever abide by and exercise my right to self defense against unjust force, regardless of the bearer of that unjust force.

Tessy said:
Troops practicing in your city... what for? Can't you guess? No no that's right you believe the government is and should be above the people -

That is not only a false statement, but obviously a total lack of perception on your part regarding my position, my goals and my values.

Are you totally anti-gun Tessy?
Are you against self-defense using lethal force Tessy?

Tessy said:
the troops are worthy and the people deserve to be trounced by them.

Didn't say that, please verify where I have by posting it in quote from my post please?

I said the CITIZENS OF THIS NATION DON'T DESERVE THE VOLUNTARY FORCE WHICH THIS GOVERNMENT IS ABUSING, and those SAME CITIZENS ARE FAILING TO PROTECT, THROUGH ENSURING GOVERNMENT ABIDES BY THE CONSTITUTION AND BOR.

Tessy said:
Nice logic! I hope you go in the FEMA camps first so I can dance and make fun of you from outside the fence.

Sorry, never happen, and I will take as many of them with me should they ever come for me before I die.

Tessy said:
The worst kind of moron is not he who secures his own doom from his ignorance but he who in the process of doing so secures the doom of all around him.

Perhaps you should turn some of that skepticism to your own bias?

Tessy said:
At least I can agree that no one has been able to hold our leaders to task for the crimes they have committed! But to me that's happened for the same reasons someone would volunteer for US military service anytime after Nam really... but especially much after 2002.

Well, it appears you are not only jaded, but partially misinformed yourself.

While I fully recognize the problems in this nation to the best of my ability, which grows everyday.... I also recognize the value of this nation which still exists as its foundational principles, government and philosophy.

The US may not be perfect, nor even close, but it is still one of the most individually free nations on earth, and many including myself see that as worth protecting, hence the motivation to join a military service of voluntary conscent to serve the nation.

What you failed to pick up from my post is that those servicepeople, often young and naieve of the system they contract to serve.... are let down by CITIZENS WHO ARE HELD TO KEEP GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABLE TO THE LAWS OF THE LAND, THE CONSTITUTION and Bill of Rights.

Do you deny that is the role of citizens?

What is the average citizens excuse for not being more active in protests, more active should it come to action BEYOND protest, such as revolt?!? "we have too much to lose to take part" is the most common theme.

Now they are seeing what their apathy and ignorance earns them..... no ability to enforce the laws on government itself, no ability to protect the military which "had no problem losing what little they have to serve a nations people they thought would protect them from unnecessary wars, and criminal military actions" by conscientious oversight of the government they CLAIM they control.

If a people can't govern themselves, or refuse to, whose fault is it? Certainly not the militaries fault, which is where YOU seem to be laying all the blame.

I look forward to your reply Tessy.

[lily]

Oh right! Sure, glorify the ignorant fools that are dumb enough to believe what the TV tells them. Who are too lazy to look up anything. Who haven't bothered to study anything about the men in our government. Who have not spent 1 minute in any kind of meaningful debate questioning the tactics, legality or lack thereof of our preemptive invasion of a sovereign nation and the slaughter of close to 1 million people now.
What rings hollow in your debate, Tessy is you're railing against everyone that doesn't believe in the same thing you do, calling them morons and retards, yet you have no respect for people that think differently than you. You think that those that join the military have no brains and are following TV and whatever, yet you don't give them credit for doing what they think is right, not what you think is right. I'm not sure how many people are "gorifiying" them, as much as they are respecting them for doing what they believe is right.

[Tessy]

Tessy said:
Oh right! Sure, glorify the ignorant fools that are dumb enough to believe what the TV tells them.

Whoa, step back.

That applies to all people, not one specific group. Being fed information by a group of controlled sources does not constitute "being informed". It is being PARTIALLY informed, since there is an agenda behind that group of controlled sources.

You can't be lazy, and free, and FAR too many ATTEMPT TO RATIONALIZE their laziness by the form their lives have taken and has been conditioned in them, by the society that surrounds them. Its typical pack mentality..... "everyone else is doing about the same thing, so, I am no better, yet no worse than anyone else when push comes to shove" they claim. Well, complacency and apathy breeds ignorance, and due to our overtaken school system by government, government teaches and conditions kids to NOT turn that skepticism inward, toward the power structure, educational systems, etc.

I agree.

Tessy said:
Who are too lazy to look up anything. Who haven't bothered to study anything about the men in our government. Who have not spent 1 minute in any kind of meaningful debate questioning the tactics, legality or lack thereof of our preemptive invasion of a sovereign nation and the slaughter of close to 1 million people now.

The Congress, the Senate, the Executive, the Judicial Branch, The media, etc, etc, etc.

There are people protesting everyday, and you see what it gets.... nothing.
There are people complaining everyday, and you see what it gets.... nothing.
There are people posting on the internet everyday, and you see what it gets.... nothing.

Peaceful protest only works if the government in power recognizes peace as a currency they accept. This same group is the group you accuse of using unjust government force, so what makes anyone think they would accept and recognize peaceful protest?

Ghandi learned this lesson, as did the fool in Tianamen Square who was squashed by the tank.

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."
http://www.potowmack.org/gandhi.html#arms


When the "bi-partisan monopoly" has stolen your election law oversight and creation, your ballot access, your district control, and all appointed seats of power as well as elected seats of power (through gerrymandering, fraud and coercion) almost all the way to local government in entireity, it is foolish to think standing outside a building shouting at the walls is going to do anything.

Well, I disagree that we're not having an affect here and now in the USA. In 2001 the percentages were ~80% brainwashed, ~15% indifferent, ~5% awake. I would say that with all the discussion, ranting, and etc. that goes on at places like this, on radio, and the little that's on TV those percentages are just about inversed. In some ways that slightly nullifies your other points.

We had Gravel, Kucinich, and Paul wake allot of people up and that movement doesn't seem to be dyeing out. If we now get political from inside the system it's possible to turn it around I think without violence I think. I hope.


Tessy said:
Glorify them and belittle those who promote individualism and true freedom!

Are you saying individual don't have the freedom to join collectives by free will and voluntary conscent? Is not the military a free-will conscent choice until a draft is enacted?

I think your bias is showing Tessy, and its unappealing.

Of course I'm bias! I do stand for something! Don't let the ridicule of words dissuade you. Damn straight I'm bias! The military is full of morons and bozos who can't think for themselves! I stand for self awareness and self education! Our government if full of self-proclaimed satanists and communists. I stand for goodness and individualism, for freedom and liberty! Don't make the mistake of thinking that if you believe in liberty that you have to allow those who do not the "liberty" to take yours away. That would be silly.

Tessy said:
Do it because the TV tells you to! Do it! For that exact thinking will be needed when the same mindless trigger-happy dumb-fu*ks start rounding you and I up for FEMA camp placement and/or extermination - which is what this thread started out being about!

Thats why I will never surrender, nor hesitate to rightfully exercise my individual right to keep and bear arms for self defense, against all enemies foreign and domestic. Individual rights protection starts and ends with the will YOU the individual have to exercise and maintain them against all unjust means to prevent it.

I am as anti-force as anyone but the pacifist or the anti-gunner, as I do retain understanding of why the 2nd amendment exists, and I will forever abide by and exercise my right to self defense against unjust force, regardless of the bearer of that unjust force.

We agree again.


Tessy said:
Troops practicing in your city... what for? Can't you guess? No no that's right you believe the government is and should be above the people -

That is not only a false statement, but obviously a total lack of perception on your part regarding my position, my goals and my values.

Are you totally anti-gun Tessy?
Are you against self-defense using lethal force Tessy?

Pro gun and pro lethal force as a last resort. The troops in the city training is all about this:

1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhxsM6NDZGc
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6Rf35j5wlI
3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF2ThweUj8U

There's no question about it! And again unless there some plan to join the army in order to start shooting at the army with their own weapons when they turn their force against the citizenry then anyone who joins them (otherwise) is a fricken retard moron!


Tessy said:
the troops are worthy and the people deserve to be trounced by them.

Didn't say that, please verify where I have by posting it in quote from my post please?

I said the CITIZENS OF THIS NATION DON'T DESERVE THE VOLUNTARY FORCE WHICH THIS GOVERNMENT IS ABUSING, and those SAME CITIZENS ARE FAILING TO PROTECT, THROUGH ENSURING GOVERNMENT ABIDES BY THE CONSTITUTION AND BOR.

Yup, you're right. I kinda jumped to conclusions in my reply to you. I read that first line and wrote most of what I wrote before I read the next sentence. :D Then after I read the next sentence I just kind went: well, maybe he won't mind too much my using him as a launch platform as we seem to agree on most things anyway and heck, it might turn into an interesting discussion...

Sorry about that. :D

Tessy said:
Nice logic! I hope you go in the FEMA camps first so I can dance and make fun of you from outside the fence.

Sorry, never happen, and I will take as many of them with me should they ever come for me before I die.

Awesome! I'll cover your back! Which I think is another point. We need to start community group watch rosters so we know who is with us. A BBQ or something every month with verified names, address, and phone numbers of tight knitted small groups of folks who think and feel as we do. AKA: good patriotic Americans.

Tessy said:
The worst kind of moron is not he who secures his own doom from his ignorance but he who in the process of doing so secures the doom of all around him.

Perhaps you should turn some of that skepticism to your own bias?

No, my bias is good and wholesome. It was a general statement not directed at you but at those who continue to sleep and believe what the government (and corporate nazi news) tells them in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Tessy said:
At least I can agree that no one has been able to hold our leaders to task for the crimes they have committed! But to me that's happened for the same reasons someone would volunteer for US military service anytime after Nam really... but especially much after 2002.

Well, it appears you are not only jaded, but partially misinformed yourself.

While I fully recognize the problems in this nation to the best of my ability, which grows everyday.... I also recognize the value of this nation which still exists as its foundational principles, government and philosophy.

The US may not be perfect, nor even close, but it is still one of the most individually free nations on earth, and many including myself see that as worth protecting, hence the motivation to join a military service of voluntary conscent to serve the nation.

I think that about 90% or so of all the conflicts we've been in since WWII had absolutely nothing to do with protecting the USA and in fact served to disassemble our "foundational principles, government and philosophy" while assembling the things we now face: communism, dictatorship, tyranny, eugenics, the invasion of sovereign nation states, the murder of MILLIONS of innocents, and the control over whatever happens to be left over. I give you Nam as a perfect example! We went to war on a lie much like 9-11, we murdered millions of innocents, and what for?

It was based on a lie and it ended on a lie.

What you failed to pick up from my post is that those servicepeople, often young and naieve of the system they contract to serve.... are let down by CITIZENS WHO ARE HELD TO KEEP GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABLE TO THE LAWS OF THE LAND, THE CONSTITUTION and Bill of Rights.

Do you deny that is the role of citizens?

No, you're right. But I didn't miss that part. In fact I agreed with you on that. It's what I meant by the last sentence or two of my reply. I still however give no credit to "young and naive" people who decide to pick up a gun and go shoot brown people without finding out who those brown people are and why Uncle Sam wants us to kill them. No credit at all! They are in the classical sense of the term: morons! - every one!

What is the average citizens excuse for not being more active in protests, more active should it come to action BEYOND protest, such as revolt?!? "we have too much to lose to take part" is the most common theme.

Now they are seeing what their apathy and ignorance earns them..... no ability to enforce the laws on government itself, no ability to protect the military which "had no problem losing what little they have to serve a nations people they thought would protect them from unnecessary wars, and criminal military actions" by conscientious oversight of the government they CLAIM they control.

If a people can't govern themselves, or refuse to, whose fault is it? Certainly not the militaries fault, which is where YOU seem to be laying all the blame.

I look forward to your reply Tessy.


I only SEEM to be laying all the blame there because that is the current topic: "Military training against American Citizens in our own cities". The only solutions I can see to this without violence is to get active myself. Get as many others as I can interested in becoming active and awake. And criticizing those who are moving in the opposite direction attempting to show them why it is in fact the opposite direction. Joining, participating, or allowing yourself to be drafted into the military is imo and I believe obvious to everyone who reads and believes in freedom, the opposite direction. It empowers the "evil doers" to do their evil deeds. If everyone (99%!!) went to boot-camp and demanded reason and critical thinking be taught and exercised... If everyone was taught humanitarianism in training... If command also applied those things and held them in the highest regard... then I wouldn't have a case. Instead we force them to chant chants of hatred against all peoples including children, and demand blind obedience to the chain of command. Have you been through the system lately? I work with these people I know what I'm talking about and it's totally sick - I'm here to tell you![hr]



Oh right! Sure, glorify the ignorant fools that are dumb enough to believe what the TV tells them. Who are too lazy to look up anything. Who haven't bothered to study anything about the men in our government. Who have not spent 1 minute in any kind of meaningful debate questioning the tactics, legality or lack thereof of our preemptive invasion of a sovereign nation and the slaughter of close to 1 million people now.
What rings hallow in your debate, Tessy is you're railing against everyone that doesn't belive in the same thing you do, calling them morons and retards, yet you have no respect for people that think differently than you. You think that those that join the military have no brains and are following TV and whatever, yet you don't give them credit for doing what they think is right, not what you think is right. I'm not sure how many people are "gorifiying" them, as much as they are respecting them for doing what they believe is right.


Wrong! It's against everyone that doesn't go find out first! There is no "what I THINK is right" or "what they THINK is right". You can't go shooting people based on what you think is the way it is. You ARE responsible to yourself to go find out what the case actually is! There is very little room for interpretation once one actually investigates these things. I not only "don't give credit" to people for killing others and/or joining an organization that does based on an uninformed idea of what they think might be right - I point the finger of moral conviction and outrage at them and absolutely accuse! Since when does joining a group that murders babies demand respect as you suggest here? No, they are worthy only of contempt and ridicule!

[Tessy]

Do you respect people like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3dvoBhevOQ

Really? But hey they think they're right... right?

And this is by far the majority!

[PatrickHenry]

Well, that was a disturbing video...but not really appropriate for THIS thread.

I won't go off topic with my reaction to such casual crimes...

[Tessy]

It IS appropriate. These are the same morons that will be policing city streets in the USA and filling FEMA camps. And this is hopefully why the Mayor put down his foot and said no way! Too bad other mayors are saying yes to this kind of thing! Too bad there are already hundreds of military run FEMA camps IN OPERATION and participating in white slavery and sexual abuse. These topics are so directly related you can NOT talk about one without mentioning the other.

[PatrickHenry]

...there are already hundreds of military run FEMA camps IN OPERATION and participating in white slavery and sexual abuse...
Might want to document THAT allegation...

[Tessy]

1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhxsM6NDZGc
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6Rf35j5wlI
3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF2ThweUj8U

All the info is there. I've done the research on this already - years ago. There's enough info there for you to run with on your own if for some reason you don't like the individual delivering the message.

[BoogyMan]

Tessy, you are trying to support your assertion on the strength of some YouTube videos from prisonplanet.tv? That site could be renamed Conspiracy Theory Central and it would better suit it's contents.

[4Reaganomics]

Tessy's post are much better suited for the "Conspiracy theory" section of the forum

[PatrickHenry]

1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhxsM6NDZGc
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6Rf35j5wlI
3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF2ThweUj8U

All the info is there. I've done the research on this already - years ago. There's enough info there for you to run with on your own if for some reason you don't like the individual delivering the message.
Oh, I am a fan of Alex Jones, allright.

But a YouTube link is not actually how debate works here.

This site deals with more hyperlinked, mainstream type news sources.

Documentation would look more like this: http://www.usapa.army.mil/pdffiles/r210_35.pdf
Summary. This regulation provides guidance for establishing and managing civilian inmate labor programs on Army installations. It provides guidance on establishing prison camps on Army installations. It addresses recordkeeping and reporting incidents related to the Civilian Inmate Labor Program and/or prison camp administration.

And so on.

I fear the Feds as much as you.

I agree that Alex Jones has the picture.

But in order to lead the good people of this forum to the light of day, you need to bring them step by baby step from one level of awareness to another. And they will resist. No one wants to consider that their government is their enemy, and that the enemies the government identifies are a diversion.

So a word of advice: YouTube links won't get it. Your debate needs to be much more rational and cohesive.

Unfortunately, your shrillness has already turned off some of the potential buyers.

And don't worry about losers like the hopeless conservative extreme. They will likely be standing alongside the soldiers attempting to herd us into the camps until we kill them along with the war machine.

[Tessy]

Tessy, you are trying to support your assertion on the strength of some YouTube videos from prisonplanet.tv? That site could be renamed Conspiracy Theory Central and it would better suit it's contents.


I'm so tired of that knee-JERK response! I don't give a damn what YOU THINK about the reputation of some site. The information on this issue checks out 100% and the key search topics and terms for YOU TO LOOK IT UP FOR YOURSELF are present in those three videos!

I say the person that discards credible information because of some "reputation" is a complete and utter FOOL! They need to get over themselves!. I've done my homework. I would say that about 80% of the info on those sites you hate so much is accurate. The other 20% is just a misinterpretation of the facts where extrapolated claims are made. They are still based on fact though. For example Alex will say something like:

"Traitor Greenspan has again exposed himself as a traitor working against the interests of the American people by urging gulf states to abandon the dollar peg - a move that could result in financial chaos."

Well thinking critically for yourself and not just being a twit that yells "conspiracy theory" and runs around like chicken with it's head cut off you examine that carefully and come up with the truth of the sited headline: "Greenspan urged gulf states to abandon the dollar peg". Yep, you search that out and sure enough he did exactly that! The rest of the headline is emotionalism. Greenspan is a traitor? I dunno.. maybe. Removing the dollar peg will result in financial chaos? Well no one can prove that it will but as I understand the market it sure won't be a good thing! Etc.

We have only a few sources of real news left in the USA and Alex Jones is one of them! That there has been thousands of smear campaigns against the guy and that his emotionalism is used against him to convict him of fraudulent conspiracy theory makes no difference to me at all. I never take anything I hear on face value and there is usually some truth to everything. In Alex's case his batting average is very high! Much higher than Fox, CNN, NBC, CBS, or ABC. You just need to remove the emotional content and do some research yourself. It's totally retarded to say "Oh that comes from www.Infowars.com so I'm just going to ignore it because my friend tells me he's a conspiracy nut." A person doing that is much MUCH worse than any conspiracy nut![hr]

1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhxsM6NDZGc
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6Rf35j5wlI
3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF2ThweUj8U

All the info is there. I've done the research on this already - years ago. There's enough info there for you to run with on your own if for some reason you don't like the individual delivering the message.
Oh, I am a fan of Alex Jones, allright.

But a YouTube link is not actually how debate works here.

This site deals with more hyperlinked, mainstream type news sources.

Documentation would look more like this: http://www.usapa.army.mil/pdffiles/r210_35.pdf
Summary. This regulation provides guidance for establishing and managing civilian inmate labor programs on Army installations. It provides guidance on establishing prison camps on Army installations. It addresses recordkeeping and reporting incidents related to the Civilian Inmate Labor Program and/or prison camp administration.

And so on.

I fear the Feds as much as you.

I agree that Alex Jones has the picture.

But in order to lead the good people of this forum to the light of day, you need to bring them step by baby step from one level of awareness to another. And they will resist. No one wants to consider that their government is their enemy, and that the enemies the government identifies are a diversion.

So a word of advice: YouTube links won't get it. Your debate needs to be much more rational and cohesive.

Unfortunately, your shrillness has already turned off some of the potential buyers.

And don't worry about losers like the hopeless conservative extreme. They will likely be standing alongside the soldiers attempting to herd us into the camps until we kill them along with the war machine.


Hmm, you're MUCH wiser than I. I'm not sure I have the patience for that. I'll try though. Thanks for the tips! I think if there were a larger audience here I would be more inclined along those lines. There are a total max of about 40 people that will read this thread and probably less than 30 that will get this far into it. Knowing this my initial attitude would be - look it up yourself you lazy bas****s. :D

I will try to work on that though as I say. ;)

[lily]

Well, I disagree that we're not having an affect here and now in the USA. In 2001 the percentages were ~80% brainwashed, ~15% indifferent, ~5% awake. I would say that with all the discussion, ranting, and etc. that goes on at places like this, on radio, and the little that's on TV those percentages are just about inversed. In some ways that slightly nullifies your other points.

I don't see how your made up statistics nullifies his points?

Wrong! It's against everyone that doesn't go find out first! There is no "what I THINK is right" or "what they THINK is right". You can't go shooting people based on what you think is the way it is. You ARE responsible to yourself to go find out what the case actually is! There is very little room for interpretation once one actually investigates these things. I not only "don't give credit" to people for killing others and/or joining an organization that does based on an uninformed idea of what they think might be right - I point the finger of moral conviction and outrage at them and absolutely accuse! Since when does joining a group that murders babies demand respect as you suggest here? No, they are worthy only of contempt and ridicule!

You still don't ge the point I was trying to make......those that disagree with you are morons and retards only because they do not believe the same thing as you do. You're worried about FEMA camps, yet you don't allow people with differing opinions to express them. Aren't you creating your own "FEMA camp"......all those that don't belive the same as Tessy need to go there?

Yep, the war is a big fuck up.........but the men and women that sign up, believe in what they are doing. You don't seem to get that, you keep insisting that they are not informed. Well, that may have been true 6 years ago.........but it ain't now.

............as for your video of the guy drinking with his buddies in the garage. Sick yes, I'll agree.......I also think it was 3 losers sitting in a garage, one guy trying to impress his loser friends. Somehow alchol does that to people.

[BoogyMan]

That response certainly isn't knee jerk, it is a well researched view on my part of the loony content of that site. You may disagree with my assessment and that is fine, but you need to calm down before you give yourself a coronary.

[Tessy]

Well, I disagree that we're not having an affect here and now in the USA. In 2001 the percentages were ~80% brainwashed, ~15% indifferent, ~5% awake. I would say that with all the discussion, ranting, and etc. that goes on at places like this, on radio, and the little that's on TV those percentages are just about inversed. In some ways that slightly nullifies your other points.

I don't see how your made up statistics nullifies his points?

Well, he said discussion does no good. I say it does and site the extreme shift in public opinion about Bush approval and 9-11, and the war. And the stats aren't made up - only "rounded off". I'm suggesting - true or not, that discussion was a huge influence and the swing a result. That would nullify it.


Wrong! It's against everyone that doesn't go find out first! There is no "what I THINK is right" or "what they THINK is right". You can't go shooting people based on what you think is the way it is. You ARE responsible to yourself to go find out what the case actually is! There is very little room for interpretation once one actually investigates these things. I not only "don't give credit" to people for killing others and/or joining an organization that does based on an uninformed idea of what they think might be right - I point the finger of moral conviction and outrage at them and absolutely accuse! Since when does joining a group that murders babies demand respect as you suggest here? No, they are worthy only of contempt and ridicule!

You still don't ge the point I was trying to make......those that disagree with you are morons and retards only because they do not believe the same thing as you do.

Of course I don't take that point. It makes no sense! It is only a claim and resides ONLY in YOUR imagination. Prove it to me. Show me where I said that. If this site is supposed to only be based on rational debate show it.

You can't because that it not my position. My position is that anyone joining the military is a retard and/or a moron. It has nothing to do with whether or not they agree with me. This has nothing to do with opinions and everything to do with facts and probable intentions!

You're worried about FEMA camps, yet you don't allow people with differing opinions to express them. Aren't you creating your own "FEMA camp"......all those that don't belive the same as Tessy need to go there?

That makes no sense at all. No one has offered an alternate or differing opinion on FEMA camps. I'd love to hear some tho. Go for it.

So again your claim is pulled out of thin air (baseless) to support an emotional comment or personal dig. This is debate?

Yep, the war is a big f_ck up.........but the men and women that sign up, believe in what they are doing. You don't seem to get that, you keep insisting that they are not informed. Well, that may have been true 6 years ago.........but it ain't now.

My point is not in relation to what people believe in or don't believe in. That's the point you're missing. If I believe in killing all DEMOCRACYFORUMS members that disagree with me how is that a justification for their deaths or an argument for it's legitimacy? No we need to turn to the facts and the law. The law says this war is illegal! The law says we are perpetrating thousands even millions of war-crimes. The facts are that the operation is baseless and founded on lies. It's a simple deduction from there to prove that anyone signing up for that is either corrupt or a complete moron! What they believe or don't believe doesn't enter into it.

And if they really do "believe" in the integrity of their country they will refuse all orders considering Iraq. There have been many people to do so already. One or two even got some ink! Now, those people are not morons!

............as for your video of the guy drinking with his buddies in the garage. Sick yes, I'll agree.......I also think it was 3 losers sitting in a garage, one guy trying to impress his loser friends. Somehow alchol does that to people.


Agree. But he's not lying either. Seriously I'm around these guys all the time. This is the caliber of the majority of grunts - I don't think anyone who's been there would disagree with this assertion off the record.

[lily]

Well, I disagree that we're not having an affect here and now in the USA. In 2001 the percentages were ~80% brainwashed, ~15% indifferent, ~5% awake. I would say that with all the discussion, ranting, and etc. that goes on at places like this, on radio, and the little that's on TV those percentages are just about inversed. In some ways that slightly nullifies your other points.

I don't see how your made up statistics nullifies his points?

Well, he said discussion does no good. I say it does and site the extreme shift in public opinion about Bush approval and 9-11, and the war. And the stats aren't made up - only "rounded off". I'm suggesting - true or not, that discussion was a huge influence and the swing a result. That would nullify it.

Huh? I ask you to prove your statistcs, you go off on 911, the war and then tell me your "statistics" are rounded off? I want to see proof of what you are stating......and then you tell me I'm not making any sense? You keep repeating the same thing over and over.

[Tessy]

Well, I disagree that we're not having an affect here and now in the USA. In 2001 the percentages were ~80% brainwashed, ~15% indifferent, ~5% awake. I would say that with all the discussion, ranting, and etc. that goes on at places like this, on radio, and the little that's on TV those percentages are just about inversed. In some ways that slightly nullifies your other points.

I don't see how your made up statistics nullifies his points?

Well, he said discussion does no good. I say it does and site the extreme shift in public opinion about Bush approval and 9-11, and the war. And the stats aren't made up - only "rounded off". I'm suggesting - true or not, that discussion was a huge influence and the swing a result. That would nullify it.

Huh? I ask you to prove your statistcs, you go off on 911, the war and then tell me your "statistics" are rounded off? I want to see proof of what you are stating......and then you tell me I'm not making any sense? You keep repeating the same thing over and over.


What are you talking about? Are you ok? Vitamin deficiency maybe?

You didn't ask me to prove my stats. You expressed your level of confusion regarding how they might or might not nullify his assertions. And I answered that.

Here's your sentence:

I don't see how your made up statistics nullifies his points?

His points were:

There are people protesting everyday, and you see what it gets.... nothing.
There are people complaining everyday, and you see what it gets.... nothing.
There are people posting on the internet everyday, and you see what it gets.... nothing.

Are we on the same page yet? I'm saying that I attribute "protesting, complaining, and posting" to allot of the change that has occurred since 2001. And no one who is even a little bit informed can deny that the opinions about 911, Bush approval, and the war have changed dramatically since 2001.

Bush approval went from high 60's to I think it's 14% now...
Congress approval is 11% or something like that (down from the high 70's)
Support for the war is similar.
87% of people think 911 was an inside job or that "Bush had prior knowledge" and let it happen. That's up from like 19% when it was first polled in umm, I think 2003.

So that's almost an inverse of what it was before. Assuming my assumption that ["protesting, complaining, and posting" makes a difference] is correct this nullifies his points somewhat.

I can't get it any simpler than that for you.

[lily]

Well allrighty then!

[Tessy]

<grin> :D

Here's a couple of polls I found just looking around in the last 3 min. I guess more would be easy to find? Just stay clear of the ones related to a media name as they'll likely be juiced toward the paper's or station's affiliations.

Bush approval rating (historical)
http://www.hist.umn.edu/~ruggles/Approval.htm
http://www.hist.umn.edu/~ruggles/Approval_files/Approval_27267_image001.png

Congress approval rating (historical)
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/08/21/gallup-congress-hits-rock-bottom/
http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/gallup1.png