Ignore and Ignorance

[Athena]

People get very touchy when they are told they are ignorant of something, and on the other hand, they excuse their ignorance by saying they don't have time to read about what they are ignorant about.

Ignorance is not equilivant to a low IQ. Ignorance means someone chose to ignore information. If you chose to be uninformed accept your ignorance, and don't post arguments based on your chosen ignorance. If you want to post, base what you say on information. This would greatly improve the forums, and justify male pride in being political.
Arguing out of ignorance can hardly be considered an interest in politics, because it can only be self interest, not a grasps of econoimc and poitical matters which neccessitates being well informed.

To chose to ignore information and proceed with an argument anyway, is.... what? foolish? What is a good term for chosing to ignore information and proceeding to argue?

[dsanthony]

The term you're looking for is "dogmatic" I believe. It fits people on both the left and the right.

[Mayberry]

If you want to post, base what you say on information. Everyone posts based on information. You have to absorb information in order to learn. Athena, you always seem to be at odds with the SOURCE of other people's information. If it didn't come from Greek and Roman classics, you lend it no credibility. I don't speak about anything unless I have information. Sometimes it might be wrong, sometimes there are several different sources with different spins, or I may have missed something. This is why I look at a variety of sources, and interperet the information for myself. And yes, I use my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE to do this. Why? Because I don't really trust any information unless it is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, comes from a source I have come to trust, or I have first hand knowledge. You may not realize it, but you do the exact same thing.

[Labrocca]

Opinions don't need a source. Often times people are expressing their opinions.

[Athena]

If you want to post, base what you say on information. Everyone posts based on information. You have to absorb information in order to learn. Athena, you always seem to be at odds with the SOURCE of other people's information. If it didn't come from Greek and Roman classics, you lend it no credibility. I don't speak about anything unless I have information. Sometimes it might be wrong, sometimes there are several different sources with different spins, or I may have missed something. This is why I look at a variety of sources, and interperet the information for myself. And yes, I use my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE to do this. Why? Because I don't really trust any information unless it is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, comes from a source I have come to trust, or I have first hand knowledge. You may not realize it, but you do the exact same thing.


Mayberry, I am ignorant of many, many things. Even I try very hard to learn somethings, such as quantum physics and math theories, I remain the equivalent of ignorant, because I do not comprehend the information. I feel no shame in acknowledging my ignorance. However, I think there is an important difference between knowing we don't know something, and not knowing we don't know something, and making arguements with the blind opinion that we know what are talking about.

I do not stop at saying literacy in Greek and Roman classics is essential to understanding. Since before the first world, nations have struggled for control of Baghdad, and I think we should know this history, instead of arguing as though everything started with 9/11, or what happened in today's newspaper.

Bush and Cheney are using the same model of dominance of nation and the world as Hitler used. Before this the US adopted the Germany model of bureaucracy which makes great social programs such as Social Security possible, and it replaced its liberal education with the German model of education for technology for military and industrial purpose, with major social ramifications. I think these things are important to know and this way beyond literacy in Greek and Roman classics.

However, as I defend myself, I am aware of the orgianal church, ignoring Aristotle and Cicero and making war all that was not sanctioned by the church, and leading to the cursades and rediscovering of ancient classics and adoption of this knowledge into Christianity. The Muslims are divided by those who accept the classics and those who do not. The communist have repeatedly kill all intellectuals. The most popular movements of the people seem to be to destroy those who have knowledge. It is more popular to attack me for what I know, than to become informed. However, I repeat, I don't know that much, and chances are good, I am mentally inferior to the many.

[Athena]

Opinions don't need a source.Â*Â*Often times people are expressing their opinions.


People are doing more than expressing their opinions. I thought I was only expressing my opinion to a few people, and then I googled Deming and democracy, hoping to get more information, and the first source of information google offered was, what I wrote in your one of your forums.
I sure do not consider myself to be the expert on Deming and his democratic model for industrial, but there were my words!

Our opinions can reach people around the world, and our opinions will lead people to improve this world or destroy it. I take this responsibility very soberly. Knowing how much I don't know, I seriously question my wisdom. I don't want anyone thinking I am expert on anything. Even in areas where I have made an effort to be knowledgible, I haven't had the benefit of discussing this information with well informed people, so I can not be sure of what I think I know. And yet, there are our words on the Internet, effecting people around the world.

When our opinions inflame people around the world, or lead them into mistaken ideas, the consequences of "our opinions" may have effects we do not desire. I think we need to be mindful this. I think we need to think not only about what we want to say, but how it will effect all who read it.

[Labrocca]

I take this responsibility very soberly.

Funny you said that because as I was reading it I wondered if you were high. :-)

Seriously...are you?

[ECW]

Ignorant people don't know something because they have not been taught.

Stupid people are those who have been taught something and refuse to learn.

[Athena]

I take this responsibility very soberly.

Funny you said that because as I was reading it I wondered if you were high.Â*Â*:-)

Seriously...are you?


Labrocca, did you mean to be insulting?Â*Â*Was this a passive/agressive behavior, intended to be an attack on me, but done in such a way you could deny it and still maintain that you are a respectful person, and haven't violate the rule?Â*Â*Â*Â*

Why have you included the statement about Muslims that is derogator of all Muslims?Â*Â*What are your intensions?Â*Â* Do you think it smart or wise to encourage hate and war?Â*Â* How old are you?Â*Â*What war experience do you have?

Does everyone else agree it is a good rule to prohibit being racially derogatory, but it is okay to be derogator of ethnic groups?Â*Â*Adding fuel to the tension between Christians and Muslims is a good thing why? Why would one be okay (religious prejudice) and not the other (racial prejudice)?

By the Labrocca, do you know how my post to your forums became a google source of information?Â*Â*That is about the best way to increase membership I ever saw.Â*Â*There are a lot of subjects that can attract people your forums, and that should increase your income shouldn't it?
I was thinking if, it were not for your desire to make money, you probably would have closed me out of the forums by now.Â*Â*So in a way, we could say capitalism is good for freedom of speech.Â*Â*There is a moral good to this, so long as people feel morally responsible for what they say.Â*Â*However, this is a two edge sword, because the desire for money can also element moral judgement, and free people to say things that shouldn't be said.Â*Â*

A nice thing about democracy is when the leaders are not moral, they can be replaced.Â*Â*But this is not the case when it comes to capitalism and the right of ownership.Â*Â*Saying we enter war for democracy is so hyprocritical, because the US is more autocratic than democratic.Â*Â*The morals of democracy are very interesting, but work only when the citizens understand the connection between morality and democracy.Â*Â*When the masses are smart but unwise, the democracy isn't worth defending.

[Labrocca]

Athena...I no longer respect you. Stuff that in your hat. And if you notice the rules say nothing about respect. Your diatribes are tiring.

You asked me about my experiences but I don't care to answer that to you. I been very curious where you come off though but have never felt it appropriate to ask. So since you asked me first...wtf is up with you? I have never met anyone with more idealism in my life.


I was thinking if, it were not for your desire to make money, you probably would have closed me out of the forums by now. So in a way, we could say capitalism is good for freedom of speech.


BINGO! Now you understand capitalism. btw this sites is LOSING money as I spend on Adwords to attract new members. The ultimate goal though is to produce revenue. However I participate here because I enjoy political debating. I have participating lightly in a few forums and find the topics educational and fun.

And I did add that statement in my signature just to piss you off.

Lecture lecture lecture..too bad Athena we can't all be as moral as you.
There, but for the grace of Athena, go I.

[Labrocca]

Does everyone else agree it is a good rule to prohibit being racially derogatory, but it is okay to be derogator of ethnic groups?Â*Â*Adding fuel to the tension between Christians and Muslims is a good thing why?Â*Â*


Stop making up rules. It's tiring.


8. No derogatory racial slurs. This will have zero tolerance here.

Let me explain exactly what that means. You can't use words such as these
http://gyral.blackshell.com/names.html
These words are used to be insulting and won't be tolerated here. They are name calling which touches on rule #4.

4. No flaming or personal attacks of any kind will be tolerated.

Now that rule applies to a PERSONAL ATTACK...such as me calling you a c u n t. That would be a personal attack imho. Since these rules are written by me then it's me that defines them and interprets how they are applied.

None of these rules talk about respect. Also none of these rules discuss deragotory racial remarks against a group or religion. I worded the rules carefully. They are NOT the first set of rules I have created for a forums. A remark is not the same a slur. You should understand the difference.

Now you are no longer ignorant of the rules or their meaning. If you choose to ignore their meaning then it's you that is ignorant.

Enjoy.

[Athena]

Does everyone else agree it is a good rule to prohibit being racially derogatory, but it is okay to be derogator of ethnic groups?Â*Â*Adding fuel to the tension between Christians and Muslims is a good thing why?Â*Â*


Stop making up rules.Â*Â*It's tiring.


8. No derogatory racial slurs. This will have zero tolerance here.

Let me explain exactly what that means.Â*Â*You can't use words such as these
http://gyral.blackshell.com/names.html
These words are used to be insulting and won't be tolerated here.Â*Â*They are name calling which touches on rule #4.

4. No flaming or personal attacks of any kind will be tolerated.

Now that rule applies to a PERSONAL ATTACK...such as me calling you a c u n t.Â*Â*That would be a personal attack imho.Â*Â*Since these rules are written by me then it's me that defines them and interprets how they are applied.Â*Â*

None of these rules talk about respect.Â*Â*Also none of these rules discuss deragotory racial remarks against a group or religion.Â*Â*I worded the rules carefully.Â*Â*They are NOT the first set of rules I have created for a forums. A remark is not the same a slur. You should understand the difference.

Now you are no longer ignorant of the rules or their meaning.Â*Â*If you choose to ignore their meaning then it's you that is ignorant.Â*Â*
Enjoy.




I don't make up rules.Â*Â*I attempt to understand universal laws and then use them for moral judgement.Â*Â*

I am not sure what our disagreement is.Â*Â*

Is the statement I objected to and you decided to repeat for whatever reason(baiting me with something I said is harmful to human relationships?) an inflaming and a derogatory statement attacking the ethnic group called Muslims?Â*Â* yes/no

Or

Is it okay to inflame the conflict against Muslims, and to slur Muslims,Â*Â*because this does not violate the rules?Â*Â* It doesn't violate the rules, because it is neither personal nor racial.Â*Â* yes/no

If it is not a violation of the rules, why is it okay to post ethnic slurs and inflame the spirit of war, but not okay to post racial slurs and inflame racial prejudice?Â*Â*What is the harm of a racial slur?Â*Â*How is different if it is an enthic instead of a racial slur?Â*Â* Our government has taken a stand against racial prejudice, but hasn't taken a strong stand against ethnic discrimination.Â*Â*Would this difference in the US government response to racial prejudice and its response to ethnic prejudice, determine why you have objected to one and not the other?Â*Â*Â*Â*What is the moral judgement when considering human relationships and our God given responsibility?Â*Â*God given responsibility because we have the capacity to learn and reason and act on what we think.Â*Â*

Have you watched, "What the Bleep Do We Know"?Â*Â*You asked if I was high, and if you were literate in Greek and Roman classics and the reasoning for democracy, or aware of what quantum physicist are talking about, I don't think you would have asked if I am high, but would have greater appreciation of your power to effect the world.Â*Â*

I admire you very much for knowing how to create and develop a site like this.Â*Â*If I could do what you have done, I would be doing it, because I realize the power that is your hands and would like to use it for the good of life on earth.Â*Â*Have you heard, "The pen is mightier than the sword"?Â*Â*People have changed the course of history with a photograph, or a word, or a book (Uncle Tom's Cabin).Â*Â*You can touch the lives of people around the world, because you know the technology to do this.Â*Â*Why don't you have a better sense of your power?Â*Â*

[Athena]

Athena...I no longer respect you.Â*Â*Stuff that in your hat.Â*Â*And if you notice the rules say nothing about respect.Â*Â*Your diatribes are tiring.

You asked me about my experiences but I don't care to answer that to you.Â*Â*I been very curious where you come off though but have never felt it appropriate to ask.Â*Â*So since you asked me first...wtf is up with you?Â*Â*I have never met anyone with more idealism in my life.


I was thinking if, it were not for your desire to make money, you probably would have closed me out of the forums by now.Â*Â*So in a way, we could say capitalism is good for freedom of speech.


BINGO!Â*Â*Now you understand capitalism. btw this sites is LOSING money as I spend on Adwords to attract new members.Â*Â*The ultimate goal though is to produce revenue.Â*Â*However I participate here because I enjoy political debating.Â*Â*I have participating lightly in a few forums and find the topics educational and fun.

And I did add that statement in my signature just to piss you off.

Lecture lecture lecture..too bad Athena we can't all be as moral as you.
There, but for the grace of Athena, go I.


It is our God given responsibility to be moral, and that is what democracy is all about :) .Â*Â*I am not great, but the concept of democracy is great.Â*Â*Hate me if want, because I know literacy in Greek and Roman classics is essential to understanding democracy, but how is it my knowledge makes me your enemy?Â*Â*You started this by creating a forum to discuss democracy, and my efforts to do so makes me your enemy?Â*Â*I do not understand the rational of this.Â*Â*

What good did you expect to come out of deliberating attempting to piss me off?Â*Â*Moral is choosing to do that which will get good results and choosing not to do what will get bad results (Socrates).Â*Â*This undertanding of morality goes with democracy, and the Christian idea that this is how to bring heaven to earth.Â*Â*It also goes with an understanding of human dignity, virtue, integrity, honor.Â*Â*Why does my knowledge of this, make me your enemy?Â*Â*Why does my knowledge of this, make me the one everyone loves to attack?Â*Â* We are in a war supposedly to defend democracy, andÂ*Â*:( we know not what democracy is all about.Â*Â*

Only highly moral people can have liberty.Â*Â*:) We protect our liberty and justice by attempting to understand universal laws, and choosing for that which will result in the good.Â*Â*Our liberty isn't the freedom to do anything we want, which can be immoral and destructive to our communities and nation, and international relationships.Â*Â*Our liberty is to learn, to become enlightened, and do what is right.Â*Â*Cicero and those who follow, say our laws should be based on the laws of nature, universal laws, and we protect our liberty and freedom by obeying the laws.Â*Â*Democracy is our shared judgement of universal laws, rather than a dictator's, or religious or political elete's, and our shared responsibility to live by the laws.

Right now I am fascinated by why saying such things has made me your enemy?Â*Â*Â*Â*Given our disagreement, how much sense do our wars in the mid east make?Â*Â*We are suppose to represent democracy around the world, and my talk of it, has made me the enemy of the people.Â*Â*InterestingÂ*Â*:shy:.Â*Â*

Getting google to make people aware of our post doesn't cost you does it?Â*Â*Do you know how my post about Deming and democracy got on google?Â*Â*If this known, then it can be used as means to attract people from around the world to your site.Â*Â* Also if we understand the power we hold, we need to accept the responsibility that needs to go with such power.Â*Â*Please, watch "What the Bleep Do We Know".Â*Â*If you have already done so, watch it again, because you missed some important points.Â*Â*

Perhaps trying to make money with this site is like trying to go to sleep.Â*Â*Trying to go sleep doesn't work real well.Â*Â*It is something we can't make happen, but must allow to happen.Â*Â*If your goal were to increase awareness of democracy around the world, money would come, same as relaxing in a tub and drinking warm milk with a banana, will help induce sleep.Â*Â*Focus first on how to get the word out, what is said, and the money will come.Â*Â* I wish I had your technological knowledge and my own site, rather then increase your wealth and be your enemy.Â*Â*

[Athena]

Back to the subject of this thread and how it relates to democracy. The Statue of Liberty given to the US by the French, holds a book for literacy and a torch for enlightenment. This goes with Socrates understanding of our human condition and potential. We are made in the image of the Gods because we can learn, and we can reason, unlike the other animals, we can manifest our own reality. As we think it, so we mnifest it.

This awesome human power of consciousness, comes with responsibility, and that is what our democracy is about. Our Declaration of Independence could also be called a Declaration of Responsibility. Unlike all other governments at the time, in the US it was the people made responsibility for their institutions, not a king, or autocracy (Germany), or the church. Unlike all other forms of government, democracy depends on the education of the people, not for economic reasons, but political reasons (Plato and Aristotle, humans are political creatures). Germany had democracy, but the government was more autocratic, more authoritarian, and they used pulbic education to advance technology of military and industrial purpose. The US had liberal education to prepare citizens to govern themselves and live together in harmony (Socrates and Cicero).

When we are literate in the classics, we are enlightened, and enlighten people can be trusted to govern themselves. Those educated for technology for military and industrial purpose are prepared to serve the state, and rely on the authority above them. This is not enlightened and it is not what our democracy was about. We are now technological smart but lack the wisdom to use this technology and this is what is making us a threat to ourselves and the world. I am getting a strong impression that what I am saying is eliciting strong emotions in people. I hope in time there will be enlightenment and the anger against me will stop.

[Rider]

Athena,
Just a few thoughts on your post.
While I have no problem with a classic liberal arts program, especially one that relies heavily on classical literature...it is simply a reality that not all people have an aptitude for that type of study. You seem to feel a disdain for science and technology, which I feel is unwarranted. It's true that there are scholars that embrace both the classics and nuclear physics, they are few and far between. I seem to remember you mentioning in another post that the democracy of Athens was unable to defend itself, while the militaristic Sparta could not function well without war.

"...how much sense do our wars in the mid east make?Â*Â*We are suppose to represent democracy around the world,..."

Do you think that we would be better served to not be at war in the middle east? If that is the case, could you lay out the basics of a plan that you would recommend we follow?
Who said that we are supposed to represent democracy around the world?

"It is our God given responsibility to be moral, and that is what democracy is all about..."

Are you speaking about early democracy in Greece? If I remember correctly, their slaves were not allowed to vote? How about women?
What morals are you speaking of?

"...Those educated for technology for military and industrial purpose are prepared to serve the state, and rely on the authority above them. This is not enlightened and it is not what our democracy was about. We are now technological smart but lack the wisdom to use this technology and this is what is making us a threat to ourselves and the world."

Rather, I would say that our technically advanced sciences and military, combined with the enlightened foresight of our founders and supported by the overwhelming acceptance of the Christian ethic has made our country the last best hope for the world.
Since the majority of my education leans toward the sciences and technology I assume that you feel that I am unenlightend and too ignorant to do anything but follow orders.
"...not what our democracy was about"? Perhaps you could inform us as to what our democracy WAS about.

"Does everyone else agree it is a good rule to prohibit being racially derogatory, but it is okay to be derogator of ethnic groups?Â*Â*Adding fuel to the tension between Christians and Muslims is a good thing why?"

You are sounding like a hypersensitive left winger now. Derogatory of what ethnic group and why?
If you are talking about Muslims, do you feel that it is immoral to discuss the role of Muslims in this conflict? Really, I am weary of being accused of bigotry if I challenge any sacred cows of the left.Â*Â*

[Labrocca]

I did some reading on Ancient Greece and Democracy last night...seems that woman didn't have the right to vote. I guess if Athena wants us all to return to that enlightened time that means she ain't worth a damn. Hmm...

I complain about Athena and her lecturing and she turns it up a few more notches. I can't even stand to read all that. I been out of school almost 20 years...class is dismissed.

I don't make up rules. I attempt to understand universal laws and then use them for moral judgement.

See..that's the problem. You want everything to be in perspective of some larger good or ethereal ideas. How about focusing on just the rules for these forums? You seem to think you are morally superior to everyone else and that your judgement and ideas and the supreme ideology. Guess what...I don't care and I doubt others do too.

I still want to know if you are a stoner becuase I suspect more and more that you are. When I was 19 and I smoked weed all day I started talking crap like this. Give that pipe a break Athena and float down to the real world where guns, bombs, and war are part of our day.

Athens is history...and why? Because some army came storming in and obliterated the place. We are humans and no idealogy will ever be universal to us. It's stupid to preach what you do and not consider real world application of it. Your insistence that we can all be a higher form of life by following the ancient greeks and what true democracy was is CRAP. The Muslims would come in and give us a dose of reality within days.

America has a great system...not perfect and it adjusts when it's needed.


I admire you very much for knowing how to create and develop a site like this. If I could do what you have done, I would be doing it, because I realize the power that is your hands and would like to use it for the good of life on earth. Have you heard, "The pen is mightier than the sword"? People have changed the course of history with a photograph, or a word, or a book (Uncle Tom's Cabin). You can touch the lives of people around the world, because you know the technology to do this. Why don't you have a better sense of your power?

Thanks...I think. Athena...I ain't some kid...I am 36 with a wife and 4 kids. I been self-employed about 12 years. I know my power. And I am not using the sword...it's called a keyboard. Again...if you wish you could do what I did...then do it. It's a spineless person that can't take control of their own lives and pursue their destiny. I do what I want...when I want...how I want...and I consider that the ultimate power. America gives me that power.


The rules are there for a reason. I had to consider what type of forums this will be and what type of posts I would allow. I know that in this time that often there is derogatory speech about a group. If I was to eliminate that I would have to eliminate a lot of opinions from the site. Essentially that's getting rid of the members. I can count 3/4's of our current active members that say negative things about a religion, group, and sometimes a race. It doesn't always sit well with me but the point of the site is to debate, understand, and discuss. You can't do that by telling people to stfu. If others have opinions I don't agree with...fine. Let's argue about it. That's the point of this forums. This site is NOT a government. It's a place to exchange words and that's all. We have no power as you say to change the world or to make new laws in it. We can only work out ideas and opinions. You seem to think we can do more or that this site has an obligation for more. It doesn't and I can assure you of that.


Our Declaration of Independence could also be called a Declaration of Responsibility.

Again...you want to reword things to suit your own needs. Sorry but the DOI is about freedom...not responsibility. You have said that statement more than once...I don't agree with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence

I don't see anywhere on that page or in the Declaration itself the word responsibility.

If it is not a violation of the rules, why is it okay to post ethnic slurs and inflame the spirit of war, but not okay to post racial slurs and inflame racial prejudice? What is the harm of a racial slur? How is different if it is an enthic instead of a racial slur?

Why are you the only person that can't understand that rules? It's NEVER ok to post a racial or ethnic slur. A remark is NOT the same as racial slur. However a racial slur can be considered a remark but we don't have rules against remarks...just racial slurs.

Here is another page which list racial slurs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs

Are you getting it yet? Probably not since you have a difficulty with comprehension. You are a twister of the truth to suit your own needs and it's annoying.

[Athena]

Rather, I would say that our technically advanced sciences and military, combined with the enlightened foresight of our founders and supported by the overwhelming acceptance of the Christian ethic has made our country the last best hope for the world.
Since the majority of my education leans toward the sciences and technology I assume that you feel that I am unenlightend and too ignorant to do anything but follow orders.
"...not what our democracy was about"? Perhaps you could inform us as to what our democracy WAS about.

"Does everyone else agree it is a good rule to prohibit being racially derogatory, but it is okay to be derogator of ethnic groups?Â*Â*Adding fuel to the tension between Christians and Muslims is a good thing why?"

You are sounding like a hypersensitive left winger now. Derogatory of what ethnic group and why?
If you are talking about Muslims, do you feel that it is immoral to discuss the role of Muslims in this conflict? Really, I am weary of being accused of bigotry if I challenge any sacred cows of the left.Â*Â*



Thank you so much for responding, but why in heavens name do you think there are some people who do not have the aptitude for learning about virtues and honor?Â*Â*Even the village idiot can understand such things.Â*Â*It is education for a technological society that requires an aptitude that not everyone has, and it is too costly to hold everyone in jails and prision, or maintain them on welfare, so perhaps we should expand on the present education for military and industrial purpose?Â*Â*I think the survival of our democracy and liberty depends on it.Â*Â*

Why would think I am at all opposed to science and technology?Â*Â*Science is essential to democracy!Â*Â*It is how we determine truth. You really are not understanding of democracy.Â*Â*

Science is as important to democracy as morality, and the bible does not teach the essential concepts, and is not the source of knowledge of democracy.Â*Â* Christianity tends to be the enemy of democracy, especially when the Christians are not educated to understand democracy.Â*Â*

Science and morality are essential to democracy.Â*Â*The way we know this is go to the source of information, which is the classics.Â*Â*Now if these forums were "Physics Forums" and everyone refused to read a physics book, how much sense would that make?Â*Â*Look, democracy is the most awesome concept in the history of humanity, and if people don't want to be informed enough to discuss democracy, why call these the "Democracy Forums"?Â*Â*Attacking me for saying there is a source of information and we need to know about democracy if that is what we are going to manifest, is a bit nuts, isn't it?Â*Â*There is a source of information for these forums.Â*Â*Why am I the enemy for saying so?Â*Â*
[hr]
You are sounding like a hypersensitive left winger now. Derogatory of what ethnic group and why?
If you are talking about Muslims, do you feel that it is immoral to discuss the role of Muslims in this conflict? Really, I am weary of being accused of bigotry if I challenge any sacred cows of the left.Â*Â*

The conflict with the Christian KKK or some Muslims, is worth discussing in another thread for this purpose.Â*Â*:)Â*Â*Or if you are Christian go to the religious forum and start a thread about meaning of Jesus's teachings.Â*Â*You know "judge not" and "love thy enemy".Â*Â* If you think Jesus taught wisdom, than why would you think it isn't okay to make racial slurs and is okay to make ethnic slurs?Â*Â*What is your logic?Â*Â*At the moment you seem to have countering ideas of right and wrong.Â*Â*Claiming to be a follower of Christ and coming down on me for saying we should follow his teaching.Â*Â*Is a follower of Christ a hypersensitive left winger?Â*Â*You have me so confused?[hr]"It is our God given responsibility to be moral, and that is what democracy is all about..."

Are you speaking about early democracy in Greece? If I remember correctly, their slaves were not allowed to vote? How about women?
What morals are you speaking of?

Can you say something about our God given responsibility to be moral?Â*Â*How do we just believing we have such a God given responsibility?Â*Â* How do we determine what is moral?Â*Â*[hr]See..that's the problem. You want everything to be in perspective of some larger good or ethereal ideas. How about focusing on just the rules for these forums? You seem to think you are morally superior to everyone else and that your judgement and ideas and the supreme ideology. Guess what...I don't care and I doubt others do too

Excuse me, but democracy is about the larger good and ethereal ideas.Â*Â*That is why those who made the US a democracy thought they were bringing heaven to earth.Â*Â*Anyone capable of logic is as capable of morality as I am. Read Socrates and discover what logic has to do with morality, and therefore, the reasoning for democracy.

You are angry with me for the same reason people got angry with Socrates.Â*Â*He asked them questions that required them to use logic.
This is the very essence of democracy.Â*Â*He questioned the Gods and was ordered to the drink the hemlock, and he did so because he wanted so much to give people something better then superstition to guide their lives.Â*Â* That is something better than mythology and religion can give people.Â*Â*Â*Â*

With democracy we use logic to determine morals.Â*Â*You know if we use racial slurs bad things will happen and makes us the source of that bad.
However, people are defending slurring an ethnic group as though the universal laws somehow change if the group is an ethnic one rather than a racial rule.Â*Â*(pay attention Christians, because Jesus was teaching this law).Â*Â*I say the universal law does not change, and I do so because I believe you are capable of logic, but you are acting like- well what responds with fear and anger because it is not capable of logic?Â*Â*This is our modern education problem, you weren't prepared to think these things threw, but understand the power of being a ruler.Â*Â*Drop the anger and return to logic.Â*Â*If my logic is wrong, correct me.Â*Â*That is what democracy is all about!Â*Â*Please, our democracy is based on the belief that we can know universal law and we can use logic to figure out such things like is slurring an ethnic group better than slurring a racial group?Â*Â*What is the effect of what we say and do, and is that what we want?Â*Â*Questioning this, arguing about it until we come to a consensus on the best reasoning, is what democracy is about.Â*Â*It is what lifts mankind to his potential and enables them to live together in harmony instead of under the tyranny of dictatorship or a police state *which the US is becoming).Â*Â*Rule by reason not tyrants is, what we what we all want the mid east to know, but we are ourselves do not understand it.Â*Â*You demand I stick to rules knowing your power to close me out of the forums- but the forum is for discussing democracy- an organization of human beings where none has the power the owner of a list holds over others.Â*Â*This is a dilemma for you.Â*Â*Will you exercise the power of a tyrant, or will you continue to read and increase your understanding of democracy and respond to my questions with logic?Â*Â*Â*Â*

Democracy doesn't mean instantly the whole society is perfect and all human flaws are over come.Â*Â*Look at what is happening here.Â*Â*I ask a question that requires logic and you get pissed at me, and refuse to even attempt a logical reply.Â*Â*Democracy can not work when people get pissed and use their power over others, instead of applying logic to the question.Â*Â*God, I hope you all start understanding democracy soon.Â*Â*the problem is much worse than I thought, and this is very depressing.Â*Â*I feel like a farmer who hoped the rain would come soon enough to save his crop, and realized at least half his crop has already died.Â*Â*Our democracy is dying because it is not longer understood.:(:(:(Â*Â*When I saw these forums, I was thrilled thinking our democracy had hope, but I am loosing all hope.Â*Â*You understand power but not democracy.Â*Â*

[Labrocca]

Try to keep your posts together Athena...I was able to merge them but it just looks sloppy if you multi post.

[Athena]

Try to keep your posts together Athena...I was able to merge them but it just looks sloppy if you multi post.



I don't think you could have found a better way to prevent people from reading and comprehending my post, short of elemenating all my punction and efforts to make paragraphs. Please, separate the post at least when they are responses to different people. Your exercise of control over my post is measures up to your value of freedom of speech how? Would you like someone else doing the same to your post?

[Labrocca]

In each quote you can say HOW you are quoting. quote=username will work. Also posting in the manner you did is commonly called spam in many forums. Lots of forums will automatically merge the posts or a moderator will warn you for doing so. This is common practice and it makes sense. Instead of creating new post after new post you should edit your existing post if possible.

Also there is a Horizontal Rule seperating each post I merged. I won't undo what I have already done (don't even think I can even).

As for

Your exercise of control over my post is measures up to your value of freedom of speech how?

WTF is that suppose to mean? I didn't edit a single word you posted. It's a matter of keeping my forums looking clean. Learn proper etiquette and I won't have to exercise anything. Jeez. You got a lot of nerve.

[Athena]

A remark is NOT the same as racial slur. :D:D:D:D:D oh my, forgive my ignorance and explain the difference.

[Labrocca]

"racial slur" is a common term.Â*Â*I gave you 2 links to a list of racial slurs.

Even wiki has a page dedicated to them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs

A racial remark is simply any statement that refers to race. It may or may not be a slur.Â*Â*It could include prejudices or misnomers.Â*Â*Or it could be an actual observation of the race. It could be simply an opinion.Â*Â*Like "blacks loves chicken and watermelon" is a common racial remark.Â*Â*It contains no ethnic slur as is commonly known. There is a difference between slur and remark and it's noticable.

The definition of slur.
http://www.answers.com/slur&r=67
If you notice the word slur implies negativity. When you add the word racial to it..it becomes a slighly different meaning.Â*Â*Consider "racial slur" it's own meaning as verified by Wiki.

The definition of remark.
http://www.answers.com/remark
If you look there you can see that remark is basically commenting about race which is so broad a definition that you can't eliminate it from modern day conversation.

And I do forgive your ignorance.Â*Â*It's something I am learning to accept. At least you are aware of it and are working hard to understand.

[bobbylien]

I know my power. And I am not using the sword...it's called a keyboard. Again...if you wish you could do what I did...then do it. It's a spineless person that can't take control of their own lives and pursue their destiny. I do what I want...when I want...how I want...and I consider that the ultimate power. America gives me that power.

Well said.