Bernie's long term impact

By: btthegreat
February 2nd, 2016
11:44 am

its a given that Sanders cannot win a nomination in a party to which he has never had any loyalty with the self advertised socialist lapel pin proudly attached . I am more interested in his affect on progressive politics and American perceptions of what socialism means.

First, Bernie calls himself a 'democratic socialist' a la Europe, when he is more like an old school progressive 'social' democrat. As I understand it, democratic socialism seeks the means of production being socially and collectively owned or controlled, alongside a politically democratic system of government. Social democracy on the other hand, supports economic and social interventions within the framework of a capitalist economy. The end goal is very different.

He has said , "I don’t believe government should take over the grocery store down the street or own the means of production, but I do believe that the middle class and the working families who produce the wealth of America deserve a decent standard of living and that their incomes should go up, not down. I do believe in private companies that thrive and invest and grow in America, companies that create jobs here, rather than companies that are shutting down in America and increasing their profits by exploiting low-wage labor abroad.”[176]

What he is really doing in this campaign, is rebranding the socialist label to fit a preexisting American model with a mixed economy and progressive liberalism as the driving force. His success with college educated youth, ( He has embarrassed the Clinton campaign with its inability to get ANY support among youth) suggests that the socialist brand is open to a revitalized interest from a generation that was in diapers when the Berlin wall came down. These ideas are basically those of the Rainbow Coalition with Jesse Jackson who stayed loyal to the democratic party label, and the Green Party under Ralph Nader as champion. While rightwingers were calling these two socialists, they were having nothing of it. This guy embraces, then redefines it. 'Socialism' just does not look as scary when Bernie is tying the presumptive nominee in Iowa. He is just laying his social democratic political egg in a democratic party nest, so that it can get enough protection and warmth to fly.

As a believer in a far broader and scope of ideology, than our two party system has provided us of late, I wish this effort a lot of success. I don't nessisarily want him to win, but I want his views to be seen as a viable alternative to what the Clinton pragmatists have sold us all.

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26 comments on "Bernie's long term impact"

  • NIOSA
    February 2, 2016 at 12:02 pm

    Bernie, like him, agree or disagree has one thing that Hillary is completely devoid of, honesty.
    I disagree with his policies & will not vote for him, but if a Dem is the winner, I hope it's him.

  • PBTime
    February 2, 2016 at 8:05 pm

    Originally Posted by NIOSA
    Bernie, like him, agree or disagree has one thing that Hillary is completely devoid of, honesty.
    I disagree with his policies & will not vote for him, but if a Dem is the winner, I hope it's him.
    Oh, please spare us the grating one-note attacks on Hillary's character. You've yet to show even one instance where Hillary has been caught in a clear cut lie. Meanwhile the leading conservative in the presidential race lies through his teeth as a fundamental part of his campaign strategy.

    Pot meet kettle.

  • Corodon
    February 3, 2016 at 6:43 am

    Originally Posted by PBTime
    Oh, please spare us the grating one-note attacks on Hillary's character. You've yet to show even one instance where Hillary has been caught in a clear cut lie. Meanwhile the leading conservative in the presidential race lies through his teeth as a fundamental part of his campaign strategy.

    Pot meet kettle.
    Not a smudgen.

  • Corodon
    February 3, 2016 at 7:14 am

    From the OP:

    "I donít believe government should take over the grocery store down the street or own the means of production, but I do believe that the middle class and the working families who produce the wealth of America deserve a decent standard of living and that their incomes should go up, not down. I do believe in private companies that thrive and invest and grow in America, companies that create jobs here, rather than companies that are shutting down in America and increasing their profits by exploiting low-wage labor abroad.Ē
    The essential problem is substituting effect for cause.

    We want certain results like rising incomes, but they can't be achieved by command. Why not simply order every employer to increase wages by, say, 5% every year? Why not decree that every paycheck provide a "decent standard of living"?

    We want important things to be affordable, like college and clean water. So why not just decree that they be so? If something is important enough, shouldn't it be free?

    Sanders says he doesn't want to take over the local grocery store, or take over the means of production, but he certainly would, by controlling the output. When people tote up Bernie's proposals and say they will cost $19 trillion dollars over a decade, they are measuring the additional controls he would impose on our resources for the effects he promises.

    What's missing is the means of producing this additional $19 trillion. Sanders says he "believes in" private companies that thrive and so on, even as he gives them 19 trillion reasons to flee or fold.

  • lily
    February 3, 2016 at 2:39 pm

    Originally Posted by btthegreat



    What he is really doing in this campaign, is rebranding the socialist label to fit a preexisting American model with a mixed economy and progressive liberalism as the driving force. His success with college educated youth, ( He has embarrassed the Clinton campaign with its inability to get ANY support among youth) suggests that the socialist brand is open to a revitalized interest from a generation that was in diapers when the Berlin wall came down. These ideas are basically those of the Rainbow Coalition with Jesse Jackson who stayed loyal to the democratic party label, and the Green Party under Ralph Nader as champion. While rightwingers were calling these two socialists, they were having nothing of it. This guy embraces, then redefines it. 'Socialism' just does not look as scary when Bernie is tying the presumptive nominee in Iowa. He is just laying his social democratic political egg in a democratic party nest, so that it can get enough protection and warmth to fly.
    The void he is filling is the Ron Paul followers. I can't believe Rand didn't pick them up. Ron had a huge following, especially internet and at that time, an internet following was something the other candidates didn't have. Of course Ron's time in Congress and not getting one bill passed didn't seem to bother the millennials, both of them being racists didn't phase them either . Bernie at least got things done, and IMO the only reason he did is his Indepenedent status....he can work across the aisle, and isn't afraid of give and take.

    Originally Posted by Corodon
    From the OP:
    "I donít believe government should take over the grocery store down the street or own the means of production, but I do believe that the middle class and the working families who produce the wealth of America deserve a decent standard of living and that their incomes should go up, not down. I do believe in private companies that thrive and invest and grow in America, companies that create jobs here, rather than companies that are shutting down in America and increasing their profits by exploiting low-wage labor abroad.Ē
    The essential problem is substituting effect for cause.

    We want certain results like rising incomes, but they can't be achieved by command. Why not simply order every employer to increase wages by, say, 5% every year? Why not decree that every paycheck provide a "decent standard of living"?

    We want important things to be affordable, like college and clean water. So why not just decree that they be so? If something is important enough, shouldn't it be free?
    Right about now, clean water sounds pretty damned good.

    I don't see anything he's proposing is pie in the sky, your translation of what he stands for on the other hand....

    With Wallmarts closing left and right, Macy and big name grocery stores, after razing mom and pop stores, or even trying to get wages back to where the average consumer can actually purchase bread and milk without stopping at the cash advance, let alone actually buy what he made, really isn't unachievable, is it? Bernie didn't just wake up one day and decide NAFTA, CAFTA and now TPP are the worse things that happened and poised to happen again and figure out this is bad for the American consumer and great for big business.

    The thing is, Corodon....many people lost their shirts and literally their farms when the market crashed, and others seem to forget it's the people that Bernie is fighting for are those people, me, you and that person standing in line for the non-existant unemployment check, or food stamps remember it was us that bailed them out, so that now they can hoard their money....they're covered, they don't need Bernie, they need Trump, who gained from the laws that are in place....and while I'm on the Trump topic, someone should tell him the age group that are Bernie supporters weren't alive, or were in diapers when Monica came on the scene....and frankly they could care less who got a BJ...and those that do care are the ones that attend Trump's packed houses, are the same ones that called Obama a Super Star for packing a stadium. The same ones that said, and are still saying Obama did an "apology tour", while Trump stands there and says just how terrible America is.

    Maybe I'm off on this rant, because after all these years, I still can't figure out just who wants America Back, and who owns it to take it away from them? It's the same people who don't get Bernie? Maybe that's why Trump pulled Palin out of mothballs....she knows who's got America and where it is, to get it back?

  • PatrickHenry
    April 7, 2016 at 8:50 pm

    Just curious if you still think that Bernie is not an actual realistic prospect for the Democratic nomination.

    And if so, is it because he's not ready to play ball with the corporations that bribe our politicians? Or because he's too far left for America and the Democrats?

  • btthegreat
    April 7, 2016 at 9:04 pm

    Originally Posted by PatrickHenry
    Just curious if you still think that Bernie is not an actual realistic prospect for the Democratic nomination.

    And if so, is it because he's not ready to play ball with the corporations that bribe our politicians? Or because he's too far left for America and the Democrats?
    There is no realistic prospect for Sanders. His upsurge is way too late, he is too far left for America.

    The superdelagates got where they are in our party, by living, breathing and struggling from a tender age, FOR our party. They worked their way up licking stamps, handing out pamplets and making phone calls for other democrats like Humphrey, McGovern, any number of Kennedys, Mondale etc long before they ran for office. They were loyal and they respect loyalty to democratic party candidates, ideals and issues.

    This guy is not a democrat and he has done nothing to earn the trust and loyalty of the party he now wants to champion. His opponent has worked for democrats and democratic victories since the seventies.

    I support him as an educational tool. We should not be so terrified of the 'socialist' label that we throw all of Europe's ideas under the bus, lest they get us labeled. He is proving that a new generation in this country is willing to consider progressive solutions.

  • PatrickHenry
    April 7, 2016 at 9:08 pm

    Hillary sucks and is a neocon warmonger worse than BHO.

    Good luck with that POS.

    Damn.

  • CdrMike
    April 7, 2016 at 9:42 pm

    Originally Posted by btthegreat
    There is no realistic prospect for Sanders. His upsurge is way too late, he is too far left for America.

    The superdelagates got where they are in our party, by living, breathing and struggling from a tender age, FOR our party. They worked their way up licking stamps, handing out pamplets and making phone calls for other democrats like Humphrey, McGovern, any number of Kennedys, Mondale etc long before they ran for office. They were loyal and they respect loyalty to democratic party candidates, ideals and issues.

    This guy is not a democrat and he has done nothing to earn the trust and loyalty of the party he now wants to champion. His opponent has worked for democrats and democratic victories since the seventies.

    I support him as an educational tool. We should not be so terrified of the 'socialist' label that we throw all of Europe's ideas under the bus, lest they get us labeled. He is proving that a new generation in this country is willing to consider progressive solutions.
    Could somebody green BTT for me?

  • NIOSA
    April 8, 2016 at 11:16 am

    Bernie has been invited to The Vatican & will go this month.
    Not sure what that means, or if it will have any impact on anything.
    I find it interesting though.
    Don't know if Hillary or any of the other candidates have gotten an invite.



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